Gary, Very enlightening! tee
> From: Gary Menzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 13:29:13 +1000 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [WSG] To Table or Not To Table for Forms > > There is nothing about a <form> tag that makes it "tabular". Many form's > just dont fit into neat columns and rows. These days I code elements firstly > so they are semantically correct. Then I use CSS to attempt to lay them out > as best as I can (with what I know and what I can teach myself from all the > online resources). And, as the other parts of this thread show, you can do a > HELL of a lot with CSS to layout semantically created <form>s. After that I > will look too using the smallest amounts of JavaScript to "tweak" things at > runtime. Then (and this is usually when what I am building is an application > that just happens to use a browser) I will go to using larger amounts of > JavaScript - but then I am usually in control of the end platform and can > restrict the browser appropriately (be it IE or Firefox - for example). > The data that is collected by a <form> tag may have a consistent schema to > it (such as name, address, phone) which is stored in a database as a > collection of like objects (what we usually call a "table") - but even that > does not justify a <form> as being "tabular" data. > What constitutes "tabular" data is when you want to display such a > collection of like objects (which may or may not come from a database > "table") in a manner that can be considered, semantically, "tabular". Or > when you clearly are working with items that semantically are a grid (e.g. a > spreadhseet, or a even a complex report of some kind). > We (and I do it too - but I think it is very lazy) have always just thought > of forms on the web as just being a set of labels and fields rolling down > the screen (because that was all that was ever possible). Whereas the print > world (and just about everyone else) things of forms as information placed > as clumps on the page that make sense to be grouped together. So we should > be embracing that view now that we have CSS to help us lay things out > (although it is still not perfect). > Semantically (i.e. the meaning attached to the tag actually representing > what the tag is actually doing) a <form> is exactly that (something that > contains tags that will collect data). This then generally implies that you > would find <label> (something to give the user feedback on what information > was being requested) and <input/select/textarea> (places to put the data - > my own personal opinion being that we should only have an <input> tag with > attributes to tell it how to behave OR that the <input> tag should only be > for text and not for type="radio" or type="checbox" as these are > semantically different elements). That said, the next question may be "What > about tabular data that you want to input as a result of a parent/child > relationship?". My answer to that is that HTML/XHTML is lacking any suitable > construct to achieve this (i.e. there needs to be some type of tabular entry > element in the specification that allows such data entry for a form). So, in > this case, (i.e. to visually layout some fields in a <form> that need to > accept data in a tabular way - yes it is a <table>). > And, with all that said, it's only just my opinion (gleaned from all the > available information on the semantic approach to markup). > But, when the chips are down and you have to deliver, you do what works. > Regards, > Gary Menzel > > On 5/1/05, Cole Kuryakin - x7m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> I've been wondering the same thing as Tee - >>>> whether to use the table for form or not, still can't make up my mind. >> I've been using tables for my forms just because it's fast and easy to >> align stuff - like a horizontal double or triple-column input design or even >> putting a text label AFTER a check box or radio button - but I don't want to >> take "the fast way out" if using tables for my forms is not adhearing to the >> spirit of web standards or accessibility. >> I have read elsewhere that using tables for form elements is permissable >> as it's considered "tabular" data. >> I'm interested in the group's overall opinion on this subject. >> Cole >> >> > ****************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ******************************************************
