Michael,
I understand that the Internet is an electronic medium, and I’m quite
aware of all the
browser nuances and additional devices employed to render websites. However,
what I said was that
the Internet is also a visual medium, which is an important aspect of site
design that must be
considered. Correct use of color, imagery, typography, links, etc are key
factors in creating a
quality site therefore to label the Internet as simply being an electronic
medium is overlooking
one of its most fundamental uses.
Furthermore, if there is a method that isn’t widely supported then it
does become a personal
preference whether, or not I choose to use it in every instance. My courseware
states that
display: inline in IE5 is unsupported, however if that’s untrue then
that’s a relief,
but has nothing to do with me unlearning everything I thought was acceptable.
I agree with much of your input, and all the other members who were so gracious
enough to take
time to review the page, and provide their expert opinions. However, I'd be
remiss if I didn't
take exception to your closing remarks, which I interpreted as quite
condescending.
I’ve been a designer for 8 years and a list member for 21 months. I
conduct courses is XHTML
and CSS at the local college, and take standards very seriously. I joined this
group for their
expert advice, and have always welcomed different opinions and points of view
in an effort to
enhance my knowledge and expertise. Normally, I’d address this issue
off-line, but I think
it’s important to express my opinion on this matter openly because there
are many beginners
to standards and the WSG who are reluctant to post questions for fear of being
chastised, or
criticized.
>From my perspective I’m only interested in learning about best practices
>as it relates to
web standards. I think we should just stick to answering the questions, and
refrain from using a
patronizing tone, or making presumptuous inferences. Allow each member to
discern for themselves
the correct method to implement instead of being made to feel sub-standard.
I say this with all respect, and hope my input is received in the spirit it is
intended.
Respectfully yours,
Mario S. Cisneros
> Hi,
>
> I haven't followed this thread completely, but I wanted to comment on this
> specific post
> because some of your comments caught my eye and another view may come in
> handy.
>
>> However, I think using <strong> to emphasize the author of the
>> testimonial is perfectly acceptable.
>
> Because it's not going to bring about the total destruction of mankind, you
> are more right than
> not in the world of living and breathing, but in the world of standards,
> it's not acceptable
> and it's wrong. You might as well use a <hn> to ad visual emphasis. You are
> attempting to
> visually draw the readers eye to the name (e.g. bold), not necessarily add a
> strong emphasis.
> If it is visual, it presentation. If it's presentation, it's not structure.
>
>> To create a rule and use <span> tag is overkill.
>
> I totally agree and, generally, I try not to use spans. Instead I mark up my
> document in such a
> way, limited as they are, the tags are as semantic as possible, while at the
> same time, provide
> me with hooks into my content without redundancy.
>
> Someone (Josh I suppose) suggested that you use a span for the
> testimonial, and while that is allot better (semantically speaking) than
> what you are doing
> now, it wouldn't have been my first choice. I would use a definition list
> for this:
>
> <dl id="testimonial">
> <dt>Joe Coyle, President, www.coylemedical.com</dt>
> <dd>Mr. Cisneros and his team have an extraordinary talent for customer
> communication, market
> vision, and web page design.</dd>
> <dl>
>
> And, if you absolutely have to have the commenter's name appear
> *visually* beneath their comments, you could use the following (or similar)
> CSS:
>
> #testimonial * {
> margin: 0;
> padding: 0;
> }
>
> #testimonial {
> width: 400px;
> }
>
> #testimonial dt {
> margin-top: 80px;
> }
>
> #testimonial dd {
> float: left;
> margin-top: -80px;
> }
>
> Of course, you would have to tweak this (margins) per instance and it's not
> thoroughly tested,
> but should work OK in most browsers.
>
>> Additionally, the image is to provide a soft visual touch
>
> There is also nothing stopping you from displaying the little "person" image
> as a background on
> your <dt>, but you certainly shouldn't be using an inline image as it is
> purely presentational
> and adds nothing to the content. If it were a photograph of the speaker, I
> would use the image
> within an additional <dd>.
>
> Similarly the images in your header could be a replaced <h1>. There are
> various methods
> available to you; most have drawbacks, all are better than in a
> non-semantic, inline image.
>
> In terms of how you display an image on the page the rule is simple: If the
> is content (as in
> the speaker photograph in the above example), it should be in the markup;
> otherwise, it should
> not.
>
>> I realize the importance of clean, well-written code and content, but the
>> Internet is also a
>> visual medium.
>
> Ahh, but it is not a visual medium. It is an electronic medium, of which,
> some clients such as
> Web browsers like Firefox and Internet Explorer can display visual
> presentation. Not all
> clients can do so (screen readers for example) and users can force those
> that can, to not.
> Paper is a visual medium. You can control all of it down to the glossy UV
> coating, font size,
> image placement, and texture. You cannot control my browser:
>
> CSS off, images, off, font size increased:
> <http://961media.com/__temp/webnetdesignstudios-1.png>
>
> Images off, font size increased:
> <http://961media.com/__temp/webnetdesignstudios-2.png>
>
>> I don't agree that every horizontal navbar should be in a list
>> especially since display:inline isn't supported in IE5, but that's a
>> personal preference.
>
> There is really no such thing as personal preference when you are dealing
> with a standard of
> any kind. There is the standard and then there is all the other stuff;
> follow it or don't.
> There is allot of gray in the standard of course, but a list is a list and
> how IE 5 deals with
> your preferred CSS is not a deciding factor.
>
> All of this aside, IE 5 handles horizontal navs derived from lists just fine:
>
> <http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/inline-mini-tabs.html>
>
> Most of the advice you will receive here is very sound and if you want to
> learn more about
> standards design, you'd be wise to heed it. It is difficult at times, but
> it's worth it. The
> first step, though, is unlearning everything you though was acceptable.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> M. Wilson
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