Chris Townson wrote: >> >> what a list looks like or how you want a list to look are >> irrelevant in the >> context of this debate. >> >> also irrelevant is whether the pipe or vertical bar has >> accrued implied or >> associated meaning through (ab)use. >> >> semantic mark-up is about utilising the most appropriate tag >> available for a >> particular thing within the provided specification
Geoff Pack wrote: > I don't think it is irrelevant. Meaning = semantics. If my inline > pipe-separated list already has the semantics I intend, then making > it an html list adds nothing but cruft. I don't see the point of > marking it up as a list, only to have to add CSS to change it back > to what I intended in the first place. Yes, I'm fully aware that, in a restricted sense, "meaning = semantics" (strictly speaking, the difference is: "semantics" = what some _thing_ signifies, indicates, or says; "meaning" = what I think or suppose some thing signifies, or the related thought induced by that thing ... although the precise difference is beyond the scope of this list) The point here is that (X)HTML provides a formal definition for a set of tags which are intended to have _semantic_ value. The explicit semantic association this provides is intended to make stuff within those tags amenable to meaningful processing _by_computers_. As computers themselves are not capable of having "meaning" (i.e. as something they possess and comprehend), it is essentially the formal definition that makes this processing possible (as a pre-agreed set of human meanings which are programatically implemented). The implementation of additional, arbitrary _human_ meaning (or devices thereof), whilst an essential part of the design process, is not something which lies at the core of semantic markup (the very notion of "markup" being intended _for_ a computer). Therefore: stage 1 in achieving semantic markup is to use suitable, provided tags where these are available (and I've encountered few situations where suitable tags are not available, even if they are generic or require class/id attributes to further describe them) so that code can be "meaningfully processed". You asked: "And what does a list really look like?" In this context, that is beside the point (the idea being that, ultimately, the end user is then in control of appearance if they wish to be). .... Nonetheless, I can appreciate that there are pragmatic reasons for not utilising a particular tag in particular situations (your example of a comma-separated list within a sentence being one). >> end of story. > Not really. That's what we're here for. Apologies - that was me being flippant - a bad habit. What I meant to suggest is that my point here is one of logic, more than opinion (i.e. if we accept the idea of semantic markup with a formal definition -> then ... ) In everyday practice, matters are far more blurred ... but, personally speaking, I would still never markup a list with pipe separators ;D Chris ******************************************************************************** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ******************************************************************************** ****************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ******************************************************
