Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right
than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If
it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your
coding wrong.


On 10/25/07, Michael Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your information, Rogier.   Doesn't change my thinking though.
> Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a
> difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox.
>
> And this difference isn't one we care about.
>
> First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more
> than
> a handful.   Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site.
> This is separate 'help' information.   Thirdly anyone who experiences the
> problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site.
>
> So yes, it would be good to fix it.  But there are far more pressing
> issues
> for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem
> this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our
> site
> stats are not experiencing the problem.
>
> Cost/benefit once again.
>
> Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all.   But out of 100,000
> users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might  not be able to use the drop down menu to
> navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back
> button instead.    If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our
> users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time
> we
> might revisit the decision to move on to other issues.
>
> Cheers
> Mike Kear
> Windsor, NSW, Australia
> 0422 985 585
> Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
> AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
> http://afpwebworks.com
> Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker
> Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
>
> Mike,
>
> Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name
> (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those
> stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a
> logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in
> their O.S.
>
> fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel
>
> I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with
> O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash
> you should go for it completely or don't.
> It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just
> because of some fancy flash.
>
> But that's my 2 cents.
>
> Rogier.
>
> On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list,
> people
> > will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development
> > dollars.
> >
> > Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know
> > anything about our customers?   We have quite a large number of Firefox
> > customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine.   I know
> > because I've tested it in Firefox.   I develop with Firefox.  My
> client's
> > testing regime includes Firefox.   There were  several people on this
> list
> > who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any problems.   The issue was
> > raised by Roger who said there was a small problem with "Firefox
> (IceWeasel)
> > for debian" whatever that is,  not Firefox.    You accuse us of making
> "poor
> > assumptions" when that's indeed what you did in your patronising way.
> >
> >
> > It might be true in big shops that there are unlimited development
> dollars
> > sufficient to allocate teams of people to iron out every last little
> issue,
> > but in small shops like mine (and they don't come smaller than my
> > business!!) there isn't unlimited time available.
> >
> > Here's a lesson in business for some of you.   There is a limited supply
> of
> > time and dollars, and most jobs have a deadline.  If you're running a
> > development shop for profit, there often comes a time when you have to
> > accept there will be issues with your output, and as lon gas it doesn't
> > impact unduly on your customers sometimes you have to just let the
> issues
> > remain in order to run the business.
> >
> > I can't afford to be spending time tracking down every last
> problem.  And
> my
> > client wont pay me to either.   We make some compromise decisions along
> the
> > way.    We will not even be testing our site in the browsers mentioned
> by
> > Roger:  Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, or Epiphany (whatever the hell
> they
> > are).  I've never heard of those browsers and I surely doubt many of my
> > client's customers have either.    The site works how we want it to in
> the
> > major environments, and in the others it's still usable, if a little
> quirky.
> >
> >
> > That's where it's gonna stop while we move on to more important issues
> like
> > rebuilding the shopping cart that is  showing signs of stress with the
> > volumes we're getting, and redesigning the database which no longer
> copes
> > with the range of products we have to accommodate.
> >
> > Those of you who think the minimum standard is perfection, good for you.
> > Well done, I salute you.  I wish I had your set of deadlines and funding
> to
> > be able to do the same.   Our standard is slightly lower at 'as good as
> we
> > can get it within the time and money allowed.'
> >
> > Cheers
> > Mike Kear
> > Windsor, NSW, Australia
> > 0422 985 585
> > Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
> > AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
> > http://afpwebworks.com
> > Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > Behalf Of Christian Montoya
> > Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 6:12 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Michael Kear
> > > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:14 PM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
> >
> > > Since we are likely to have perhaps 1 or 2 users only using any of
> those
> > > browsers, and by far the vast majority of our users are using
> WindowsXP
> > with
> > > IE6 or IE7 (remember this is not a IT related site  - our customers
> are
> > > tshirt retailers and advertising agencies) I've decided the
> cost/benefit
> > of
> > > fixing that isn't worth it.
> >
> > I work with a 6 non-techie "business types" who are all involved in
> > advertising/licensing related functions and they all use Firefox by
> > choice. Have you ever asked your users what they actually use? Do you
> > have any stats on browsers (Google analytics will tell you this)? If
> > not, you are just making a poor assumption.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Christian Montoya
> > christianmontoya.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
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