This got kind of long.  I hope it's helpful...

On 2/8/06, Paul Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's because all the references are
> geared towards programmers and not testers.

Consider the possibility that there is less and less of a difference
between them in the future.  That is, all around us, programmers are
developing testing skills, and testers are developing programming
skills.  Learning Ruby/Watir is a great way to start talking to
programmers in their own language.

> I'm persistent, if nothing else, and sometimes
> it pays off.  Actually, if it weren't for this mailing list, I'm pretty sure
> that I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have.  (Thank you all for your time
> and help, by the way.)

You sound like you're good at your job.  As for the mail list, there
is a long, long tradition in open source software of mail lists for
people to discuss their problems, issues, solutions, gossip, etc.
about the project.  You're right, this list is exceptionally helpful,
and it looks like you're using it to good effect.  In other words,
communities like this are the way open source software happens.

Look at it another way:  whether open source or commercial, you have
to make an investment in the software.  For a commercial project, you
invest a lot of cash, which gives you the right to call an 800 number
and get reams of documentation;  for an open source project, you
invest your time with the community, learning, helping, contributing. 
If not enough people pay a company, the company dies; if not enough
people invest time in the open source project, the project dies.   And
answering questions from beginners is one of the most important things
that helps an open source project grow.

> I'm pretty sure that I'm being paid to be a creative *tester*,
> and not a creative programmer.  Does Ruby/Watir help me do that?  No, not
> really.  I still haven't figured out how to structure a decent test case in
> Watir, let alone script it.

But you're learning fast, eh?  So are the rest of us.  Watir is
designed to be used in exploring and creating as well as in a
write-static-tests sort of way.  If you haven't discovered the
"get_foo" methods and "flash" methods yet, ask some more questions
about how to use Watir in IRB.  (BTW, also consider scripting the
test(s) first, then structuring them.  That's what "refactoring" is,
and it's a powerful way to learn.)

> I believe that there currently is a big gap between the users of Ruby &
> Watir and the rest of the Tester community who could probably be making use
> of it.  The Ruby and Watir languages just aren't translated into
> Tester-speak.

The Pragmatic guys (http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/) will be
publishing a book by Brian Marick (www.testing.com) in a few months
called "Scripting for Testers (with Ruby)".  It aims to be very much
like what you describe, a resource for testers with little or no
programming experience designed to help them solve common testing
problems with scripts written in Ruby.  It's divideded into
alternating sections "walking the walk" and "talking the talk" that
describe solving real-world problems, and programming practice
respectively.  Hopefully it'll help fill the gap you describe.

Finally, to answer sort of an underlying theme, people here regularly
bring up the issue that Watir doesn't have the bells-and-whistles of
commercial testing tools:  script recorders, clickable GUIs,
convenient stuff like that.  In fact, there is active resistance (or
at least apathy) on this project to building these things-- mostly
because the people that are capable of doing this work generally think
that these sorts of features are the wrong way to do testing.

On the flip side, if you see something that you think Watir needs--
ask for it.  That's how I started with the project.  I had no Ruby
experience, and just a little Perl.  In my first couple of weeks on
this list I asked for about 20 new features-- and I got 'em.  (Mostly
to do with support for frames.)

I hope you keep on with it, I think you're on the right track.  Let me
know if you want more information about open source, beginner
resources, whatever...
-Chris

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