[moved off of the RDF WG list, included Richard and www-archive@]

Ivan,

I'm a little surprised to hear you say this -- the W3C process [1] is very explicit that objections are a (perhaps *the*) key part of determining consensus, and in the face of a lack of consensus understanding the strength of the objections is how Chairs ought to evaluate competing proposals. Isn't it helpful than to evaluate current proposals to know as early as possible which ones would generate strong objections?

Lee

[1] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#Consensus

On 6/8/2012 9:56 AM, Ivan Herman wrote:
This is a meta-comment, not especially directed at this mail, just triggered by 
it: can we try to be careful about the usage of the term 'object', 'formal 
objections', etc, at this stage of the discussion? This term has a very strong 
meaning in the W3C process, a recorded formal objection is such that, if it is 
maintained in spite of the resolutions of a working group, escalates up to the 
Director for final arbitration, etc. Its usage has already created unnecessary 
confusion (and adverse reactions) on the discussions before and we should try 
to avoid making the current deliberations even more difficult...

Thanks

Ivan


On Jun 8, 2012, at 01:51 , Richard Cyganiak wrote:

Hi Sandro,

I've heard you say two mutually incompatible things:

1. A Turtle file published at<i>  containing graph G is an RDF dataset with only 
named graph<i,G>

2. A Turtle file published at<i>  containing graph G is an RDF dataset with 
only a default graph

Which one is it? It can't be both.
If I said (1), it was a mistake.

I would rephrase (1) as a conditional:

  A.  If it is true that a turtle file serializing G is what is
published at<i>,
  B.  Then the dataset consisting of the named graph<i,G>  is true.
-1.

We can postulate the existence of a *specific* dataset, let's call it the “web dataset”, 
and can say that under the condition above the g-pair<i,G>  is true in the web 
dataset. (Formally, this could be done as a semantic extension, let's call it W-entailment 
(for web). So if A is true then *every* dataset W-entails the g-pair<i,G>.)

But I will formally object to anything that defines truth *in general* in terms 
of dereferencing. This is not a negotiable position.

Statement (2) is close to correct, but I'd change it slightly; it's not
that it "is" a dataset, but that it can reasonably be read as a dataset.
It's a type-conversion thing.  A triple can be seen as a (trivial)
graph; a character can be seen as a (trivial) string; a graph can be
seen as a (trivial) dataset.
This is sloppy thinking. They are not the same, and by pretending that they 
are, you are just confusing matters.

In practice, I see this manifesting in the kinds of APIs one uses for
loading and manipulating dataset.  Can give the API a graph when it is
expecting a dataset and have it silently promote the graph to being a
dataset with that graph as its default graph?
The much more interesting case is the opposite situation: What happens when you 
give a dataset to an API that expects a graph? That's after all the status quo; 
anyone who goes to the web to load a Turtle file expects a graph, and that's 
how it's been implemented for the last eight years. If we now define that a 
Turtle parser must also be able to handle datasets, we've deeply broken every 
existing implementation.

Alternative, we could define a class of things that is the union of the
class of graphs and the class of datasets -- that would be more crisp
and might be as convenient.    But I expect people will be find just
using datasets as those things.
I don't see the point of this. If we define truth for datasets, and consider 
the default graph as asserted, then an RDF graph is semantically equivalent to 
an RDF dataset with just a default graph and no empty graphs. That's all we 
need. But they are not the same.

Best,
Richard



To be clear: this is speculative.   My point is not to say we should
standardize this, but I don't think we should rule it out.

  -- Sandro

Best,
Richard




----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf







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