it has nothing to do with the evolution of the CSL style in this case
(though the general concern is certainly valid - this used to be the case
for the Vancouver styles, e.g., before I rewrote them from scratch) - Frank
actually rewrote most of it pretty recently. I'd say it's a mix of two
things. One are the style requirements, the other one is that Frank went
out to code a style with essentially no affixes at all - everything is done
by groups and delimiters (hence the nesting).
My use of "Complex mess" might be a bit misleading here. For the initiated,
this is actually very convenient, because it's very hard to break things
because of that structure - I'm more confident editing CMoS now than I was
before. But for someone who has never seen CSL it's going to be confusing
and intimidating.
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Robert Knight
<[email protected]>wrote:
> > Chicago Manual is a great style, but it's also a complex mess, with
> something like 8 layers of nested groups. I really wouldn't use it as a
> model.
>
> Out of curiosity, how much of this is down to the inherent
> requirements of the style itself vs. the gradual evolution of the
> style as CSL was developed?
>
> Regards,
> Rob.
>
> On 19 September 2012 17:28, Sebastian Karcher
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Franzika,
> >
> > just some brief additions:
> > - As for "good CSL" I want to echo what the others said: Prefer groups
> over
> > affixes and use macros extensively. One other point: If you're working
> of an
> > existing style, don't assume that it's perfect. Many styles on the
> > repository are only so-so.
> >
> > - Example styles - APA and Vancouver are pretty good (though not
> perfect).
> > Elsevier's Harvard is nice because it's pretty clean and it's a very
> simple
> > style.
> > Chicago Manual is a great style, but it's also a complex mess, with
> > something like 8 layers of nested groups. I really wouldn't use it as a
> > model.
> >
> > Where I somewhat disagree is that coding by hand is preferable. I think
> > teaching how to work the visual editor effectively might be more useful
> and
> > lend itself better to spread the word and the code it puts out is pretty
> > clean.
> > I'll include a part on CSL in my Zotero workshops this fall and what
> I'll do
> > is to give a general overview over the way CSL styles are built up, but
> then
> > focus on using the editor, which still requires a good understanding of
> the
> > underlying mechanics, but no attention to syntax.
> >
> > What I like about the editor is that it will do a lot of things right
> > automatically - e.g. you don't have to worry about most of the
> conventions
> > for the info section - and that you don't have to remember/look-up all
> the
> > terminology (is it given-name-disambiguation-rule or
> > name-disambiguation-rule? is the value "by-cite" "minimal" or something
> > else? etc.) - if you code dozens of styles that's not a problem, but with
> > casual contributors that's a very real issue. Also, the visual editor
> saves
> > the style correctly in utf-8, indented correctly, and with a .csl
> extension,
> > another set of issues you don't have to worry about. It doesn't validate,
> > though, so careful with that.
> > It does have a code editor that works pretty nicely, too - very similar
> to
> > the Zotero test panel - if you want to work with the code directly.
> >
> > If you're interested, some overview styles on CSL by me are at the
> bottom of
> > this Prezi:
> > http://prezi.com/9xyzzycsyx4a/zotero-ecosystem/
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> > Sebastian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Franziska Heimburger
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello everyone,
> >>
> >> I have come to source people's ideas for a 'codesprint' I have suggested
> >> for next week's THATCamp Paris. The potted description in French is here
> >>
> http://barcamp.org/w/page/54813952/Codesprint%20et%20Booksprint%2027-28%20septembre%20%28cliquer%20ici%29
> >> , but the general idea is to explain the basics of csl style language
> and
> >> then see how many styles we can turn out for French humanities and
> social
> >> sciences. This takes up the initiative explained here
> >> http://www.boiteaoutils.info/p/csl-france-styles-pour-zotero.html and
> hosted
> >> here https://trello.com/board/csl-france/4e8f4ee92adc2a00009616d3 which
> >> never really took off.
> >>
> >> I originally suggested this a long time ago and then started wondering
> >> whether it was still a good idea when I saw the progress that had been
> made
> >> on the visual style editor. In the end I decided to maintain the
> codesprint,
> >> including actual code, because I reckon with the fairly tech-literate
> public
> >> at the THATCamp it makes sense and it would be an excellent opportunity
> to
> >> get more good French styles into the repository.
> >>
> >> So far my plan is to assemble links to all the available documentation
> on
> >> the page mentioned above with the necessary explanations in French, to
> start
> >> the codesprint with a walk-through of adapting an existing style
> (located
> >> using the visual editor tool), while explaining the structure of
> csl-styles.
> >> I may well produce a very basic style with in-line comments in French
> >> explaining what happens at each point.
> >>
> >> So, this is where my questions come in :
> >>
> >> has anyone ever held a similar initiative - and have any useful hints to
> >> share?
> >> What guidelines for good csl-practice would you want to teach a bunch of
> >> beginners?
> >> finally, more specifically, when writing French styles, I got used to
> >> including codes like   for non-breaking spaces and è for รจ -
> in
> >> good part because I got tired of people opening/saving styles on
> different
> >> operating systems and breaking accented character encodings. I remember
> that
> >> being discouraged at some point on this list. What are people's
> opinions on
> >> this?
> >>
> >> I'd be very grateful for any advice you might have.
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >> Franziska Heimburger
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------
> > Sebastian Karcher
> > Ph.D. Candidate
> > Department of Political Science
> > Northwestern University
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
>
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--
------
Sebastian Karcher
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of Political Science
Northwestern University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
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