I searched around a bit, and I agree that "Jean de La Fontaine" might not be the best example. Better examples might be "Ludwig van Beethoven" (dropping particle) and "Vincent van Gogh" (non-dropping particle). Then we get:
Display order with "demote-non-dropping-particle" set to “never” or “sort-only”: "Beethoven, Ludwig van" "van Gogh, Vincent" Display order with "demote-non-dropping-particle" set to “display-and-sort”: "Beethoven, Ludwig van" "Gogh, Vincent van" As the example above shows, "van" has an ambiguous particle type and we thus cannot rely on automatic parsing of two-field name fields (given and family name) like those used in the Zotero UI to identify particles and assign them as dropping or non-dropping. The CSL spec currently doesn't discuss this type of parsing, since it assumes fully structured metadata. But it's clear that the particle parsing process is by far the most opaque aspect of Zotero/CSL's particle treatment. I'm really not a fan of protecting names in double quotation marks. I think the best option would be for the Zotero UI to be more explicit about particles, e.g. by offering a multi-part name field (given, dropping particle, non-dropping particle, family, and suffix). Rintze On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Nick Bart <nickbart1...@gmail.com> wrote: > This is to proceed with a discussion started on > https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/30974/2/any-idea-why-an-a-author-comes-last-in-the-bibliography/. > > While the CSL schema in its current form seems adequate for dealing with > non-dropping particles in European and Arabic names, I feel some aspects of > interpretation need to be reviewed: > > In a nutshell, I argue that “van den”, “al-” and friends are genuine > non-dropping particles, but “La” and possibly a few others are not and are > best seen as parts of a single multipart last name (just like “Van” in > Belgian or American names, e.g., “Van Rompuy”). > > The following is copied from > https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/30974/2/any-idea-why-an-a-author-comes-last-in-the-bibliography/: > > Certain names start with non-dropping particles, where “non-dropping” means > these particles have to appear in in-text citations (“van den Keere”, > “al-Hakim”) but may or may not be dropped in a bibliography for sorting > (“al-Hakim, Tawfiq” [sort under “H”], “van den Keere, Pieter” [sort under > “K”]), or sorting and display (“Hakim, Tawfiq al-”, “Keere, Pieter van > den”). > > The Chicago Manual clearly recommends the sort-and-display variant (16e: > 8.10, 8.14, 16.71, 16.76); that’s why I would argue that all CSL Chicago > styles should switch to `demote-non-dropping-particle="display-and-sort"`. > > By contrast, any last name that does not function this way, i.e., where > elements are never removed from the front for purposes of sorting or > display, or in other words, where the last name is always used in one and > the same form only throughout a document, both in text and in a > bibliography, should be parsed as one multipart last name. > > For example, I would argue that “La Fontaine” should be understood, contra > the examples given in > http://docs.citationstyles.org/en/stable/specification.html, as one single > multipart last name, since “Fontaine” never seems to be used alone, neither > for sorting nor display (I’ve sometimes seen “Fontaine” used as a > crossreference pointing to “La Fontaine”, but that’s nothing currently > implemented in CSL anyway). > > Parsing such “immutable” last names as multipart last names will most likely > take care of all “potential objections to demoting the particle when > demote-non-dropping-particle="display-and-sort" is applied for European name > formatting” [fbennett] referred to earlier in this thread. > > If this seems acceptable so far, it would also mean that some of > citeproc-js’s parsing rules need to be reviewed, e.g., the one on “La”. > Protecting such names by wrapping them in double quotation marks would serve > as a workaround, of course. > > On the other hand, if a genuine need is felt to have more flexibility, e.g., > allowing different settings for demoting various individual groups of > non-dropping-particles (e.g., “al-” vs. “van den” vs. “La”) we’d have to > discuss an extension of the CSL schema – but currently I don’t really think > that’s necessary. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > xbiblio-devel mailing list > xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ xbiblio-devel mailing list xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
