Scott, I see XML/EDI as a step towards a better information exchange. We want to get away from the EDI style information exchange, both in structure and content. XML is a better structure for information exchange than EDI, but we still have to deal with the content. The content is being developed by groups like OAG and RosettaNet. The question I have is how to go from EDI to OAG or RosettaNet? This is where I think XML/EDI can play a role. In my view an XML/EDI would help me map to OAG or RosettaNet through the use of XML to XML translations. Thoughts? ________________________________________________________________ Kurt Kanaskie Lucent Technologies CIO Strategy, Planning & Architecture [EMAIL PROTECTED] (610) 712-3096 -----Original Message----- From: Scott Shulman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 3:15 PM To: Kanaskie, Kurt A (Kurt); [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Article: Future of XML and EDI? As I said in pervious emails..XML/ EDI will NOT replace existing "traditional" EDI solutions. It will enhance it. Scott Shulman Director, E-Commerce 818-706-5203 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kanaskie, Kurt A (Kurt)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 7:22 AM Subject: RE: Article: Future of XML and EDI? > Hello, > > I recently joined this list and these are the first messages I have received > on this topic. I would like to respond to some statements and the > questionnaire (pasted here near the top, comments are at the end of the > questionnaire. > > Q1. Do you plan to replace your existing X12 tools/maps with XML > tools/interfaces? > > Yes! > > Q2. Please list the reasons for your answer to Q1? > Lower cost of use, via the Internet vs. VAN. Easier interpretation of the > message. A novice can read an XML message whereas some knowledge and effort > is required to decipher an EDI message. This means developers are more > likely to reuse an XML message than an EDI message. The mindset I have > encountered is, "it's easier to create a new message than to try to reuse an > existing one". Finally, and I know its cliché, but extensibility. A standard > XML message can be extended to support "particular" partners while not > requiring a complete new interface. This is due to the fact that all XML > fields are tagged, unlike EDI messages where some fields are packed. > > Q3. For any "NEW" development, would you choose XML or traditional > EDI > (X12, > EDIFACT, etc.)? > Definitely XML! > > Q4. Please list the reasons for your choice in Q3. (e.g. skilled > labor > pool, > sunk investments, cost savings, evolution etc.) > Cost of development, there are lots of web hackers out there that just love > XML. Faster implementation cycle due to lower learning phase. More business > opportunities due to open and standard XML messages. > > Q5. Given the choice of transports would you choose a VAN or the > Internet > to transport your "EDI" (X12, XML, whatever)? > Internet! > > Q6. Please list the reasons for your choice in Q5. > It is ubiquitous infrastructure, and we are already paying for it. > > Personally, I believe XML has a bright future, but I'm not seeing > the > compelling reasons one would replace their existing > EDI with XML. > > Money, money, money! Lucent spends quite a bit of money on the development > of new EDI messages and on the transport mechanism (VAN). Secondly, Lucent > does a lot of business with small business partners (suppliers, etc.) where > EDI is not a practical solution due to its cost. We do not want to impose > EDI on all of our trading partners. So, then we have two forms of B2B, EDI > vs. other-with-small-partners. To date the later has been done at the IT > developers discretion (i.e. Fax, automated phone, etc.). We see XML as the > key to bringing all of our B2B interfaces together with the obvious > advantages. Lastly I think the nature of EDI causes more interfaces to be > developed. Lucent has a very large number of interfaces that it uses both > internally and externally. We are working hard to lower this number due to > the cost of maintaining them. XML is the key in my mind. > > But XML is not enough. XML is just the syntax, standards are required to > define the content. Currently there is no clear XML standard that the > industry has adopted, rather there are a lot of XML standards, which some > would interpret as, "therefore there are no standards". While this may be > true now, I don't expect it to continue. Lucent is very active in the (OAG) > Open Applications Group, which we are using in our current implementations, > and in RosettaNet. Ideally we want a single standard so we are working with > each of these groups to help bring them together. > > Interestingly, I am leading a project within the OAG that is defining an > architecture for mapping EDI to OAG messages. The technical part is > straightforward (XSLT on an XML/EDI representation) but the semantic part > will be the most challenging. > > I look forward to further responses and discussions on this topic. > > BTW, is there an archive of this list somewhere. I don't want to rehash old > conversations. > Cheers, > > ________________________________________________________________ > Kurt Kanaskie > Lucent Technologies > CIO Strategy, Planning & Architecture > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (610) 712-3096 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Orin Rehorst [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 6:07 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Article: Future of XML and EDI? > > The answers below, "There is no XML standard," taken with "For each EDI > Transaction set, there must be an equivalent XML set of DTD's and/or > Schema's that are agreed upon," beg the question: "Is XML ready for industry > groups to build DTDs, schema, and get going with it?" > > Orin Rehorst > Port of Houston Authority > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 7:04 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Article: Future of XML and EDI? > > > Q1. Do you plan to replace your existing X12 tools/maps with XML > tools/interfaces? > > No, because right now, there is no XML standard. > > Q2. Please list the reasons for your answer to Q1? > > For each EDI Transaction set, there must be an equivalent XML set of > DTD's > and/or Schema's that are agreed upon in the industry I wish to do > business. > Not just on the fly made up to through the data at the trading > partner, but > industry-wide consensus and acceptance. > > Q3. For any "NEW" development, would you choose XML or traditional > EDI > (X12, > EDIFACT, etc.)? > > No. > > Q4. Please list the reasons for your choice in Q3. (e.g. skilled > labor > pool, > sunk investments, cost savings, evolution etc.) > > For the same reasons as in Q2 > > Q5. Given the choice of transports would you choose a VAN or the > Internet > to transport your "EDI" (X12, XML, whatever)? > > The internet, using the internet to transport EDI, XML or whatever > is by > far the best method. But, your trading partner must be able to > receive the > data that way. If doing EDI via a VAN, then some investment in EDI > over > the internet must be made, if going to go with XML or a new > technology, > then your trading partner is probably capable or willing to invest > in the > Internet technology to make it happen. > > Q6. Please list the reasons for your choice in Q5. > > After initial investment, it is free. The initial investment is > well worth > the cost because it will be the communication method of preference > in the > future. > > mtm > _______________________________ > The EAN.UCC System > The Global Language of Business (tm) > Office: 609.620.4583 > > > > > "Leary, John R" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Dick > Brooks (E)'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Roy Roebuck > Sent by: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "XML EDI Listserver (E-mail)" > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > zserve.com cc: > > Subject: > RE: Article: Future of XML and EDI? > > > 01/09/00 06:31 AM > > Please respond to "Leary, > > John R" > > > > > > > > > > Gents, > some philosophical comments of an early sunday morning: > -- what we have here are instances of "linguae francae" (see > Webster) > -- what is, is in a continuum; that is, as what will be, becomes, > what is > changes > -- EDI is 1050 / 5-channel papertape, is X12, is EDIFACT, is XML, is > XEDI, > is ebXML ... > -- as a language, XML is a carrier, and not intrinsically content > intensive > -- as a lingua franca, XML is fly-paper, and picks up all sorts of > useful > content (see XEDI.org) > -- as a language, EDI is rich in content, has several dialects, and > even > its > own tribe of keepers > -- as a lingua franca, EDI is like LATIN: syntax & content > controlled by > scribes, not by traders > -- just as Esperanto failed, and Swahili succeeded, XML will > flourish as a > lingua franca > -- chose XML for interacting with (new) suppliers because most (new > & old) > only speak lingua franca > -- an etymological pun: lets's be frank: whether a lingua franca is > "language of the franks", or "language of the frank" is immaterial: > it's > trade that makes the grade. > John Leary > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Brooks (E) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 2:39 PM > To: Roy Roebuck; XML EDI Listserver (E-mail) > Subject: RE: Article: Future of XML and EDI? > > > Roy, I disagree with your statement "that traditional EDI folks are > saying > "disregard the power and economies of XML and the Internet, and > continue to > use the expensive and proprietary EDI mapper software over expensive > and > proprietary VAN"." > > In fact, over the past three years a significant number of companies > and > entire industries have migrated away from the VAN and onto the > Internet > because of the associated cost savings. The Gas industry began the > migration > to the Internet in 1996 and the Electric industry began the process > in > 1998. > Organizations in these industries are transporting traditional EDI > over > the > Internet with great success, and I see no end in site to this > migration. > > The resistance appears to be aimed at XML and not the Internet. > Companies > that have invested in X12 software and labor to create transaction > maps are > asking the question "Why throw everything away and replace it with > XML?". > This is a good question, IMHO. What does XML offer those who have > already > made the investment in traditional EDI technologies? > There's no question that a new implementor, with no history or sunk > investment, would find XML attractive (XML parsers are free, X12 > translators > are not). But current implementors of X12 are having a hard time > seeing the > benefits of a replacement strategy, again IMHO. > > It would be interesting to hear from list members who have > investments/implemented X12 with regard to > the following questions: > > Q1. Do you plan to replace your existing X12 tools/maps with XML > tools/interfaces? > > Q2. Please list the reasons for your answer to Q1? > > Q3. For any "NEW" development, would you choose XML or traditional > EDI > (X12, > EDIFACT, etc.)? > > Q4. Please list the reasons for your choice in Q3. (e.g. skilled > labor > pool, > sunk investments, cost savings, evolution etc.) > > Q5. Given the choice of transports would you choose a VAN or the > Internet > to transport your "EDI" (X12, XML, whatever)? > > Q6. Please list the reasons for your choice in Q5. > > Personally, I believe XML has a bright future, but I'm not seeing > the > compelling reasons one would replace their existing > EDI with XML. > > Dick Brooks > www.8760.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Roy > Roebuck > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 11:09 AM > To: XML EDI Listserver (E-mail) > Subject: RE: Article: Future of XML and EDI? > > > Why do we continue to discuss XML versus EDI as though this were an > either/or issue? Isn't the whole issue of EDI versus XML versus > XML/EDI > resolving down to the application of syntax, semantics, and > messaging > medium > in the synchronous and asynchronous interchange of information? It > has > been > stated from the beginning of this group that we're seeking EDI in > combination XML. (In some reports to my clients, I've described > interchange > medium as "Carrier", interchange syntax as "Container", and > interchange > semantics (metadata) and information/data as "Content".) > > For years, traditional EDI has invested much useful effort in > building up > an > organized and standardized body of interchange semantics (business > rules, > vocabularies/data-dictionaries, grammar, etc.) using the content > translation > syntax of various information/data mapping tools/methods to work > over a VAN > medium. XML has come out since 1996 providing a more powerful > content > mapping and translation syntax over the TCP/IP medium of the > Internet, > while > being semantically neutral. EDI via XML, in its many open and > proprietary > forms, seems to be seeking to move the rich semantic knowledge of > traditional EDI onto the syntax of XML over the Internet medium. > > It seems to me that traditional EDI folks are saying "disregard the > power > and economies of XML and the Internet, and continue to use the > expensive > and > proprietary EDI mapper software over expensive and proprietary VAN". > This > hope that XML and the Internet will not globally usurp Traditional > EDI > syntax and medium is not realistic or rational. > > Modern EDI: Semantics = Traditional Standard EDI Messages = > Information > Content > Syntax = XML = Information Container > Medium = Internet+Intranet+Extranet+VPN+VAN = Information > Carrier > > > > Roy > > > > ========================================== > XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list > Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com > > Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation > Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Leave the subject blank, and > In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe > > Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: > http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm > > > > ========================================== > XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list > Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com > > Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation > Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Leave the subject blank, and > In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe > > Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: > http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm > > > ========================================== > XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list > Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com > > Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation > Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Leave the subject blank, and > In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe > > Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: > http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm > > > > > > > ========================================== > XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list > Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com > > Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation > Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Leave the subject blank, and > In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe > > Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: > http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm > > > ========================================== > XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list > Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com > > Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation > Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Leave the subject blank, and > In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe > > Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: > http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm > > > ========================================== > XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list > Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com > > Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation > Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Leave the subject blank, and > In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe > > Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: > http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm > > > ========================================== XML/EDI Group members-only discussion list Homepage = http://www.xmledi.com Brought to you by: Online Technologies Corporation Home of BizServe - www.bizserve.com TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send email to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Leave the subject blank, and In the body of the message, enter ONLY: unsubscribe Questions/requests should be sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To join the XML/EDI Group complete the form located at: http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/5815/mail1.htm