Gauvain, thanks for this thoughtful mail that raises a few good points, and lays the basis of a more constructive discussion :) I'll write up a detailed answer later today
Jani Gauvain Pocentek wrote: > First of, sorry for the previous email of which I'm not really proud but it > was a start ;) > > After some more reflection I think I see why I'm not happy with the changes. > In fact it's not really a matter of gnome or not gnome (not entirely). > Having the best softwares in a distribution is a good thing, no doubt about > that. But I feel that the way it's been done since Gutsy (read, add > applications, no matter where they come from) is probably not what I expect > from a distribution built by a community. The goal seems now to provide a > fully featured distribution, in the easiest and fastest way possible for > devs. This is what Ubuntu wants to provide, and what users expect Ubuntu to > be, this is the way a distro which aims to be the leader has to proceed (and > thus use a fully featured DE as base). Is that what we want from Xubuntu as > developers (and as users too)? I don't want of this, and I find way more > interesting to spend some time on improving the distribution by other means > than just using what's been done by the others (yes, that's a dev POV, but > we are on a devel list, right?). > I do care about users, even though I've been blamed several times already > for not taking real care. That's a blame I have to accept I guess... :) > If building an Open Source distribution is just a matter of collecting > pieces here and there without doing anything else, well I'll have to find > other things to do in my spare time, this is not interesting. > > This might sound silly, but why not take more time between the releases? The > 6 months based schedule is a good point for Ubuntu, is it really useful for > Xubuntu? Jérôme has done a very good work on the bug triaging, and managed > to build the best relation I've seen since the birth of Xubuntu with the > Xfce developers. How could Xubuntu have a good relationship with upstream > when the only feedback is "This xfce application is not as good as the gnome > equivalent, we won't use it until it's better" ? Taking the time to test the > applications, make them crash, report and fix bugs is certainly a better > way, isn't it? But yes, it takes time. Does Xubuntu have deadlines? Does it > have something to demonstrate to some customers or investors? > > Maybe I didn't realize what really is Xubuntu after all. Please tell me if > this is the case. > > Quick note on the technical side, I'm working on a Xubuntu derivative for a > very low end machine (256 Mo RAM, 700Mhz equivalent processor) since one > year, adding gnome libs has a real impact on the performances (but no, I > don't have numbers to show, so it probably means nothing...). > > Gauvain > > > Jani Monoses-3 wrote: >> Gauvain Pocentek wrote: >>> Oops sorry, it's already happening. >>> >>> I didn't react until now because I thought the "discussions" were >>> useless, but I think I care too much to be totally quiet (well, I did >>> care at some point, not that much now). >>> I'm sorry to see this distro turning into a Pseudo Ubuntu with bits of >>> Xfce, after having spend so much time working on it, trying to make it >>> different and lighter. >> It is lighter. I am not sure why users would want it different. Xubuntu >> was primarily about being a lighter Ubuntu using Xfce. That is still >> true today. It is definitely ligher and can be very close featurewise. >> >> I am sorry you too mix developer-only PoV into what should be mostly >> user oriented. What most users will care about is working apps not >> necessarily Xfce labeling, so chosing the latter when it has drawbacks >> it is ineffective. >> >> I don't see why you think adding apps which do not affect anything >> besides neing in the menus are wrong? Xubuntu is supposed to be light >> not minimalist. There's a difference. >> Lightness is resource related and we all experience it so the lighter >> the better. >> Minimalism is more of a philosophy and it is preferred by experienced >> users. It has no technical sied to it, it is a matter of prefenece. >> I think these two are often mixed up in our discussions and bloat as in >> resource abuse is mistaken for bloat as in too many installed apps. >> Newbies will want as many useful apps (one per cantegory) as possible. >> Experienced users may want minimalism. the latter category can more >> easily get what they want than the former so we cater, as Ubuntu, to new >> Linux users. >> >>> Sorry to not provide constructive ideas or proposals to solve the >>> problems, but I don't see how I could bring something new or useful when >>> all the efforts made by Lionel and Jérôme has been treated like crap >>> (sorry if "crap" is not CoC compliant). >> I am sorry that you see it this way. It's ok to use 'crap' btw, I do not >> mind :) >> I still do not see how J&L's work is treated like crap. Their work on >> packaging and bugs and their idea of what Xubuntu should be are not the >> same thing. Otherwise you could say my previous work is treated like crap. >> We cannot have any change in distro leadership turn into treating users >> like crap. So their work is still here, but I wish they hadn't spent too >> much time on squeeze and fixing other apps when their time is limited. >> >> Jani >> >> >> -- >> xubuntu-devel mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel >> >> > -- xubuntu-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
