On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 2:28 AM, jmak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Jari Rahkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > jmak kirjoitti: > >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Vincent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:38 PM, jmak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> Hello all, > >>>> > >>>> Please read this article. > >>>> > >>>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=9419 > >>>> > >>>> I have been advocating something similar since day one, but always > >>>> ignored. We need to pay more attention to xubuntu's aesthetics. > >>> The gist of that article as I see it is that not too many people should > be > >>> working on Ubuntu's artwok - and those who do, should be good at it. > What > >>> kind of reply do you expect here? > >>> > >> > >> Vincent, > >> > >> I posted this link to draw attention to the visual features that > >> should be given more priority in xubuntu. > >> One component doesn't make the desktop "pretty" (like many people > >> mistakenly believe, for instance wallpaper) but all the components > >> (usplash, gdm, theme, icons, panel, fonts) together. Like in the > >> symphony, every instruments have to work, in accord with each other > >> > >> Yes, after so many years, they start realizing that the programmers > >> paradigm doesn't work in art (that everyone does a bit and at the end > >> put all the bits and pieces together). This method produces a horrible > >> patchwork. > >> > >> jmak > >> > > > > I don't think this is anything new or that no-one has realised this > > before. The fact of the matter is that there simply aren't enough > > talented volunteer artists around with the required expertise, > > motivation and time to work on our beloved open source projects and > distros. > > Hi Jari, > > Good that you replied because I felt all along that my message didn't > go through due to my saying things too politely. So it is time to say > them a bit more bluntly so that the message is understood > unequivocally. > > Your take on the issue is off here. It is true that not many serious > designers around but this is not due to the fact that there is not > enough interested designers; I myself met with many on the art mailing > list; but when they figure the way Ubuntu people handle visual matters > they quickly depart. The fact of the matter is that the sorry state of > Ubuntu is due to the fact that incompetent, visually illiterate people > decide on aesthetic matters. Imagine, you are a programmer, and > someone who thinks that C++ an exotic sandwich from the Caribbeans > gives you instructions of coding. Something has been happening at > Ubuntu. I spent more less two decades working on various design field > but if I have ever come up with such a visual hodgepodge like the > Ubuntu interface, I would have fired at the second day. This is the > said truth about Ubuntu; these are conditions that actually > discouraging artist to joining to the bandwagon. > But there are more to this. In general, Ubuntu people do not > understand one thing. Collaboration in art and design DOESN"T WORK; at > least not in the way it does in coding. A portrait cannot be drawn by > many artists even if these artists are geniuses. Why? Because each has > its inherent style that manifests regardless of the intentions. > Drawing a collaborative portrait would end up in a Frankenstein. The > same is true of design. Drawing on my experiences, I can say this. So > far, I haven't heard better collaboration method than the studio > paradigm. In this context, the customer and the art director hammer > out all the niceties of the design and when it does go down to > production all the details are already decided upon; after that > graphic artists simply follow the guidelines and work out the details. > This way the unity and the coherence of the design can be maintained, > of course its quality depends on the original idea and the its > execution. A unified and coherent design, even if not as brilliant in > its details, is better then a patchwork with superior items. > > > So as I see it, it's all a matter of resources, or more specifically the > > lack of them. Not that it's a wonder that open source projects attract > > more coders and users than let's say graphical artists or sound > > designers. This is evidenced by the fact that to my knowledge you are > > and have been the only active artist in the Xubuntu team for quite a > > while. It's certainly not because artists are actively discouraged from > > joining the team. > > Jari, this is not the matter of lack of resources but the proper > understanding of the issues involved. But now, lets talk about > xubuntu. Xubuntu development suffers from the exact same shortcomings > as Ubuntu does. Decisions are made by those who have no understanding > about design issues. You are here long enough and probably remember > that I have been advocating changes in xubuntu since almost day one. > And what happened? up until now almost all of my recommendations have > been ignored. I suggested, replacing the icon theme, cleaning up the > icons, improving the icons on the panel, changing the gtk theme, > theming the panel and so on and guess what, all of them ignored. Plain > and simple without even giving indication why. This is what > frustrating and not the lack of resources. >
This still sounds like a problem with a lack of resources to me. Someone has to create and package the new icons and the panel theme, package the icon theme and gtk theme - who's supposed to do that? If I knew how to package I'd gladly be of help, as artwork is something I do care about, but unfortunately I don't know how to package. And even if I could, there still isn't a panel theme I could package since nobody has created one. > > > > > I understand that this can make you frustrated, and that you feel the > > need to draw attention to the matter, but I can't see how this helps in > > any way. You have pointed out problems and vague sketches of an optimal > > situation, but no way to get there from here. Solutions and the > > resources to implement them are what Xubuntu needs, not stating the > obvious. > > > > I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) would love to help you realise > > your vision to it's full extent, if only I had the time and the talent. > > Unless you can find someone who does, I have to say that this discussion > > is a bit pointless. But please do not let your frustration stop you from > > working on Xubuntu, as I'm sure the recent attention garnered by open > > source graphical tools like Inkscape and the Gimp will eventually bring > > more artistic talent to communities like this. There is certainly hope > > of a brighter future on this front. > > If the items, I listed above could be implemented that would be a big > step toward solution. When I asked help, a few days ago, about > usplash, it was not about creating graphics but about helping figuring > out the code that perhaps could be modified in order to fix the > progress bar issue. > > Again, this is not the lack of resources but the lack of vision and > understanding that retards visual development. Look at dreamlinux, I > far as I know, one developer and a graphic artist have been working on > it; and in terms of visuals, it is one of the more professionally > designed Linux distro. It worth to download it just to take a look at > it. Every little details from the progress bar to the panel, the gtk > theme, icons are fine-tuned to achieve that kind of unified desktop I > am talking about in relation to xubuntu. Maybe you don't like it > because you have a different taste, but here we don't talk about > personal preferences like children but about the particularities of a > well designed desktop. > > Let's hope that putting things a bit more bluntly, the issue I am > talking about has become a bit clearer for everybody. > > jmak -- Vincent
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