Cdes
I decided to interestingly observe the debate around "Cde Mbeki a leader by distinction" without any active participation, for two reasons: 1. I knew it was going to turn personal, and i was once embroiled in a discussion [in this forum] with one person who claims to be more member of ANC than others. I regretted that moment because i felt it was not good for the fundamental platform provided by this beautiful University. We abused the platform by then and i did not want that to happen again, with me being involved. 2. Cde Mbeki is just not welcome here, "some" of us think that when we are anti him, we automatically become more pro JZ, We forget one fundamental principle: There are no permanent enemies in the revolution. [They might just work together as they did 30yrs ago while we are busy fighting unnecessary battles in their names, where are we going to be ?]. We also chose to forget what SASCO once warned of "a tendecy of being a members of other member instead of being members of the organisation [ANC]", a warning that became popular in the mass democratic movements: nevertheless that is secondary. Why i now choose to write; Because of WONDER NKOSI's rhetoric insunuations about Cde Mdu. Cde wonder is from Mpumalanga,based in Pretoria currently. Some of us who are here in Mpumalanga, in the township where Wonder says he come from, attending ANC work in various wards day in day out would speak in this forum that Cde Mdu does ANC work on behalf of NEHAWU. To come here and villify him with fabricated lies is scandalous,malicious and at best nonsensical. We must expose this tendecy in which ever way it manifest itself, yesterday it was David Maimela, today it is Cde Mdu, tommorrow it may be one or more of the members of this University. We can't allow this: A syndrome of attacking other cdes so as to appear to be more JZ. Why? If we differ in views, we do so because that is in the nature of debate, more over what ANC tought us: To differ untill we find each other". Lets stop this thing enquiring about other Cdes in Tarvens and Shebeens. Notwithstanding Thabo Mbeki's weakness, until he himsel pronounce otherwise,he remains the son of the movement. His service to the ANC is more than our living ages [some of us] as human beings, probably 90% of us in this forum. Funky Mpumalanga >>> [email protected] 04/20/09 9:23 AM >>> Cde Mzukisi, I do not know when did you join the congress movement structures. At a time I joined this structures, I was taught of traditions and among this traditions were the recognition as all former presidents as presidents. I do not know why you create an unnecessary debate out of nothing. President Mbeki, like all presidents of the ANC who served before President Zuma - including President Dube, President Sefako, President Mahabane, President Gumede, President Seme, President Xuma, President Moroka, President Luthuli, President Thambo and President Mandela remains presidents of the ANC in their different periods of service. It is not by supprise that President Malema and others continue to refer to President Mbeki and to other (former) presidents as presidents. Let us not create a new tradition now that we are not acclimatized to. Cde Tsholo, re-invite means invite again. This was said in the light that President Zuma was re-invited as deputy president of the country after the 2004 general elections while the saga was still burning. Msholozi became the Deputy President until the controvertial Judge Squires judgements in 2005. I wrote before that two judgements in this country changed the political setup. One is that of Judge Squires on the Shaik Case and the other is the Judge Nicolson's verdict on the Zuma V/s NPA case. Judge Squires made inferences on JZ in the Shaik case and President Mbeki as I said regarded the inferences as judgements and forgot the principle of "innocent until proven guilty", this was also the case after the Judge Nicolson's verdict where the NEC of the ANC decided to recall President Mbeki on the inferences made in that judgement. The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" was ignored. Yes, I do not dispute that President Mbeki and his collective both in the ANC and in Government made errors. Those errors are part of the ongoing learning process that even any other collective will not avoid. The only way to avoid errors is to do completely nothing. I agree with Senzo, we need to move on and not crucify individuals for errors committed in the line of duty. Activism will always be accompanied by mistakes. Let us therefore not write obituaries for those we tasked with responsibilities. This, too, will pass and fresh mistakes will be committed. The ANC will continue to lead the masses of our people. As it does that let us not burn the bridges that we have already passed but continue to count them as we pass. I am convinced, Cde Mzukisi, that most of the things you said might be true but can we disassociate ourselves with members of the movement because of their personal intelligence, arrogance and aloofness. We new this things before, why do we judge them now. I mean, let us not bestow people with membership they do not have and distance them from the organization they love. They, too, are still comrades. I pause!! >>> Mzukisi Ronyuza <[email protected]> 4/18/2009 2:42 PM >>> Mduduzi, who is President Thabo Mbeki (President for Life)? What is your political party? I don"t think we should dignify your mail by providing answers. Let's not be fixated past like Mdu. Crying for a spilled won't assist you Mduduzi. Proving conspiracy is difficult Mdu. Let us not be drugged by personality cult. That Mbeki was working a collective is a myth. If it was so we wouldn't be where we are today. The quagmire that he has put our movement in will take years to undo. Mbeki's personal anger could be seen in the way he was doing things. The fact that he was not consulting the ANC on major decisions, including the firing of key government deployees, shows his scant regard of the ANC. His minute understanding of the ANC is disrespect on its own. In his quest to make the ANC a "modern managerialist" capitalist political party he silently, covertly and conspiratorially purged many people from the movement, direct and indirectly. Wait kancane Mdu, proof of Mbeki's misdemeanour can be seen in GEAR (SAP), disregard of the Alliance, use of junior ANC functionaries to fight his ideological battles, undermining the basic tenets of our NDR and the Freedom Charter, Sidelining of Ideological opponents, rewriting the ANC History, deliberately intentionally forgetting some of the liberation heroes, hatred of Trade Unions and MKMVA etc. This is the proof, to name a few, of your President's downfall. Look at the permanent casuals in the commercial and Textile industry and look beyond your denial Mdu. LASTLY MDU CDE THABO MBEKI IS NOT THE PRESIDENT UNLESS YOU ARE MC CARTHY'S FRIEND, OR UNLESS AGAIN UNLESS YOU ARE A MEMBER OF COPE WHO IS WAITING FOR THE SECRET LEADER FROM SOMEWHERE TO COME AND LEAD COPE "WHEN THE TIME IS RIPE" ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANC. PLEASE RESPOND. Mzukisi Sharp Mdu. On 4/17/09, senzo ncongolo <[email protected]> wrote: well comrades i think here there most unfortunate thing is that comrades do not assess the intire leadership that lead with TM including cde Jz.history will judge all of us because i think all of us have done grave things to each other in defence of our individual interests. Mdu,Tsholo we should remember that in our lifetime within the mass democratic movement we have acted selfishly at some stage. finally lets build a very strong ANC and focus on th eprimary tasks facing us currently. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:03 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Cde Mdu i was not compering JZ to Moroka i was asking that does TM belive that JZ is our Moroka? that question is very relevant and yes there r similarities in the Xuma & TM case, as you put it they both did excellent work fo the organisation! but i differ with you fundementally when you say :"He used the "quiet diplomacy" and re invited JZ as Deputy president of the republic while ther JZ saga was burning. I think he respected the organisation more than anything." coz many of us would say thats when the abuse of state power began and as Cde Mbalula put it in his letter thats when the trust confered on TM by ANC was undermined. i say this becouse if TM, as you put it was just respecting the organisation when he recalled JZ, he would have first accused the meeting in the NEC of the ANC; remember the ANC is a political democratic organisation, and the NEC would, i belive have advised how to deal with the matter after debating it. whethere TM would eventually recall JZ its a non-starter but had he discussed with his NEC (the highest dicission making structure between confrencess) branches would most probally not have rejected the collective dicision of the TM & his NEC no matter how painfull (mind you this was the result for some of us when TM was recalled!). No one(well not me at least) was said that branches were drunk or dead when they elected TM in two consecative terms. i think you should withdraw that statement unless some one has really said it! as a matter of fact chief i belive that JZ is our Luthuli. also we must wait for history to judge the real outcomes and impacts of polokwane. we cant be players and refs or judges at the same point only after a couple of years from 2012 will we be able to see the real effect of polokwane on the political landscape of the country but most importantly o fthe ANC. let me put it to you that we still have to implemen the ressolution of the polokwane under the new administration and still give them sumetime to c if they are effective. also we still have cope using TM in thier posters and songs and hero worshiping him! so when will he make a public statement acknowlidging cope's right of exsistance and requesting them to stop using his face and name to campaighn cos he is and said he is an ANC member and he will vote ANC? when comrade Mdu when? in my final analysis TM like Xuma failed to act on a particular changing political trajectory and that has resulted tragically for both of them. notwithstanding the difference in thier situations A Luta... > Well said my chief. > _______________________________ > From: Mduduzi H Vilakazi <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:56:59 PM > Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Mbeki a leader by distinction!! > > > Thanx Cde Tsholo and Cde Paul for responding. > > I agree with 80% of your response cde Paul. I think we need some time to > clarify each other on one or two aspects. However, my posting was not a > defense of President Mbeki as aperson but his contribution as a servant of > the people deployed by the ANC. He has clarified his stance on loyalty to > the ANC and I do not think he should clarify his stance on the JZ saga for > reasons known to all of us. > > In law a person proves his innocence not his guilt. that is why those who > have evidence of wrongdoing by President Mbeki should come forward with > such, that is when he has to answer to allegations. But, as it stands now, > none came with something that implicates him, so there is no role he has > to clarify except disinviting JZ as Deputy President where he acted within > his prerogative (section 91 of act 108 of 1996). > > Cde Tsholo, The Xuma/Moroka issue is different. Xuma was a known cadre of > the revolution. He built structures of the organisation on the ground > unfortunately he did not want to buy in the ANCYL programme of militancy, > hence his removal. His concerns were that he was replaced by someone who > did not know the ANC and was not a member during his election. He did not > believe that such a person can steer the ship that he had built. Do you > blame him? I think its unfair. > > With the TM/JZ issue, both comrades had a relationship of more than 30 > years working together for a common cause. Both are tried and tested > cadres of the movement and both led the ANC as President and Deputy for > the period 1997 - 2007. It is therefore unfair to associate Mbeki with > Xuma (A leader) and JZ with Moroka (at that time a non-starter). > > The JZ issue came with De Lille in 1999 and President Mbeki did not act > except having trust that JZ was innocent until 2005 when inferences were > made on JZ. That is when he ignored the basic principle of "innocent until > proven guilty". He used the "quiet diplomacy" and re invited JZ as Deputy > president of the republic while ther JZ saga was burning. I think he > respected the organisation more than anything. > > Do we mean the oversight he made in 2005 was so grave that we need to > forget him as President of the ANC for the two terms 1997-2002 and > 2002-2007 democratically elected (uncontested)? Do we mean the > organisation was dead or delegates were mad in 2002 when he was re-elected > in Stellenbosch as president? > The issue here is not about membership. I am more concerned with the > sterling contribution he made to the organisation. Can all of it be buried > now because he lost the race in Polokwane? > > I am doing nothing but defend a legacy of a dynamo who made a sterling > contribution to the ANC for more than 52years. The ANC should be proud of > producing such a leader. Leadership styles changes and differs from > collective to collective. Some of the issues are not mistakes but an era > that can be understood by those in the upper echelon of leadership. > > Lastly, I do not think because of the contestations in Polokwane, history > shall judge. It was not for the first time that contestation took place 1n > 1930 between President JG Gumede and President Pixley ka Seme. Gumede > received 14 votes while Pixley amassed 39. There was no annihilation of > President Gumede's legacy because he lost to President Seme. Even though > they formed lobby groups that bad mouthed each other but these lobby > groups were disbanded right in the conference. > > It is wrong for people to use Mbeki's name for their own personal > political fortunes but that does not warrant Mbeki's call to respond/ come > clear/ come to the open or come out. He mentioned manier times that he > remains a loyal cadre of the ANC. > > I pause!! > > > > >>>> <[email protected]> 4/17/2009 8:24 AM >>> > > Mbeki a leader by distinction? > > Comrade Mdu, i understand and respect your views on evidence bieng brought > forward; but lets always remember the ANC is a democratic political > organisation. in short i want to refer you to the deep seeded division > which were there in the ANC when President Xuma (who like mbeki had done > wonders for the ANC and built it organisationaly). When Xuma started > distencing himself from the ANC and later joined by others like Selope > Thema they first formed a breakaway with in the ANC. The then Secretary, > Cde Sisulu said that later they were to learn that some of Xuma's concerns > were in particular about President Moroka were very correct; but the > manner they went by it not only undermined organisational unity but it > also spat at the core of democratic centrelism (again pls remember that > the ANC is a democratic political organisation)! > > Know i am sure u are finding it hard to get the relevance of the above > small history; well its simple when Xuma was chucked out of the NEC and > later Selope Thema expelled; they then used the opportunity to use the > then only pro African journal, the Buntu..., to discredit the ANC and said > that bullyboy tendencies and balckmail politics of the ANCYL was what > drove them away, and that the ANCYL was not respecting its elders ect ect. > > Now history is good coz we can now do some situational analysis and ask is > Thabo Mbeki our Xuma? does TM belive that Zuma (when pushed and coz he > knows him so well, will not be able to lead the ANC)is our Moroka.? has > the ANCYL (Mbalula NEC) made the same mistakes on Zuma as the ANCY > (Mandela NEC) did on Xuma? Will Zuma be our Luthuli? > > Manier times i have said on this forums and other forums what my responses > are to the above questions. perhaps you need to ask your self these > questions give us ansewrs! notwithsanding Cope's recent calls off giving > TM presents on Sunday and inviting him to thier rally, and thier TM > posters!! Also remember that like Xuma TM is more than welcome to attend > any functions of the ANC and in particular NEC meetings as this is his > constitutional right. > > lastly in my view TM should do like Xuma go the NEC and speak his mind and > leave with the consequences! > > History has not judged the outcomes of polokwane yet!! > > Pls respond chief! > > >> As President Mbeki has requested on the 09th of April 2009 that anyone >> with evidence of his political inteference should produce such to law >> enforcement agencies, please do so if you have such evidence. >> >> You are but walloping and not giving details of his involvement in the >> issues. His relation with Mbalula when they were both presidents of the >> ANC and ANCYL respectively cannot be summarised by the fabrications in >> the Mbalula letter. >> >> Part of the document read to us by the acting NDPP when pronouncing >> that he could not proceed with the cases on Msholozi clarifies that >> there is no information or whatsoever that implicates president Mbeki on >> the issues. >> >> What you wrote is equivalent to the rejection of the ANC manifesto. >> Most of the facts in the manifesto are the same as those reported by >> president Mbeki in Polokwane. You and Mbalula cannot mislead us by >> ignoring the good things that the Mbeki administration did for the >> country. >> >> I fully agree that he like all human beings made mistakes during his >> leaderrship but you must tell me who of all the good leaders of the ANC >> was never mentioned as a sellout. They were labelled so because >> leadership is not writing letters but providing solutions to problems. >> While doing so, some decisions will be highly unpopular. >> >> As president Julius Malema has said, the ANC owns all the good and the >> bad things that the Mbeki administration made. President Malema further >> acknowledged the mistakes that president Mbeki might have caused and >> pleaded for the forgiveness of such mistakes. >> >> The ANC is an organisation that will never abandon its members, why >> such a campaign on president Mbeki. However, president Mbeki's good >> stewardship can not be forgotten because of political sentiments and >> fabrications without proof. >> >> I want to challenge anyone in this forum to dispute that most of the >> things that the ANC are proud of were achieved during the 14 and a half >> years of Mbeki occupancy in the office of the presidency both as the >> only executive deputy president and subsequently president of the >> country. Why do you and Mbalula owns the achievements and dismiss the >> mistakes that came with democracy. >> >> We are tired of discrediting president Mbeki's legacy and fabricating >> lies about him. I stand firm to be villified by those who hold a >> contrary view, but if you have evidence of wrong doing by president >> Mbeki, furnish such to law enforcement agencies. >> >> I pause!!! >> >> >>>>> Kaizer Mohau <[email protected]> 4/15/2009 11:20 AM >>> >> >> LET US NOT LOSE FOCUS * QUENCIQUENCIES ARE HUGE IF WE DO >> >> The open letter to former President of the ANC and the country Thabo >> Mbeki, by Cde Fikile Mbalula a member of the National Executive >> Committee of the African National Congress came at a time when as >> members of the ANC we needed political direction as to how on earth >> are we to deal with the repercussions resulting from the National >> Prosecuting Authority's decision to withdraw charges against the >> President of the ANC and soon the country. >> >> This does not in any way suggests that the NPA provided us with a >> political dilemma in this regard neither does the NPA represents an >> institution that we could trust anytime soon. But this is precisely >> because the NPA vindicated us as members of the ANC * and cadres of >> this ANC led revolutionary movement. >> >> We have long before the NPA could be sober, argued that there is no >> case to be answered by the President of the ANC Cde Jacob Zuma * >> When >> in a COSATU conference a song was composed asking Bulelani Ngcuka as >> to what is it that Cde Jacob Zuma has done? It was against this >> background. >> >> Because Ngcuka was controlling the Scorpions we had to ask him this >> question * to our disappointment no answer came forth except an >> intensified offensive on the persona of Cde Jacob Zuma by the media, >> the Presidency of the country, certain members of the National >> Executive Committee of the ANC during Thabo Mbeki's leadership, >> opposition parties and last and not least the so-called intellectuals >> and their ideological sidekicks masquerading as political analysists. >> >> It is impossible to think of Bulelani Ngcuka and his Co. operating >> without instructions from somewhere, in our mind there was no doubt >> that a powerful hand was behind these shenanigans. We knew that the >> President of the ANC and the country by then knew about what was >> happening * as such we were and we are still of the view that Thabo >> Mbeki was either responsible for these actions or gave blessings to >> those in the forefront. >> >> So the decision by the NPA came as no surprise in terms of its content >> and not the political form these issues took prior and after the >> decision was made, what was our concern was when the NPA will be sober >> and take this long awaited decision. >> >> The former President dismissed a number of important leads into the >> so-called conspiracy * amongst those is the main issue of the >> existence of a concerted and calculated plot to undermine in the eyes >> of the public the image, character and political leadership of Cde >> Jacob Zuma. When the issue of the Browse Mole report came to the >> public domain * which was nothing except another briefing notes aimed >> at dealing negatively so with the leadership of the entire movement >> including the Alliance leaders, Thabo Mbeki dismissed it as another >> work of counter revolutionary elements, something Thabo Mbeki is well >> known for during his term of office * including his "Extra ordinary >> arrogance which leads to total disrespect and disregard for the >> leadership of our movement and the movement itself. >> >> >> Perhaps the million Rand question in terms of the current debate of >> what is to be done, following the NPA decision as it is unfolding and >> taking a centre stage in how political parties are contesting our >> votes, should be located and subjected to internal democratic process >> of the ANC. It is my humble view that as of now we need to cool our >> heads and our minds by applying the very attitude demonstrated by the >> President of the ANC Cde Jacob Zuma of desisting from being >> judgemental lest we fall into the political trap set by the opposition >> with the intention to ensure we lose focus of the most important task >> of today, that of ensuring more than two/thirds majority in the coming >> elections. >> >> As to what happens to those who have wounded the movement overtime >> considering the profusely bleeding ANC * as a result of Thabo >> Mbeki's >> style of leadership * I think we should let the structures of the ANC >> * in the coming National General Council to decide on the course of >> action to be undertaken by the ANC as part of the process of healing >> itself. >> >> We should avoid making judgements at this stage * whether we forgive >> or we call for the conspirators to face the firing squad * should be a >> subject for the ANC structures * in a process that will satisfy all of >> us. >> >> People should use as expected internal processes of the ANC to lobby >> for their positions in this regard * it must be noted that Thabo Mbeki >> cannot be treated * in the manner that will eventually undermine the >> internal and organisational discipline of the ANC. >> >> Besides our treatment of Thabo Mbeki as a puppet master who was the >> only one behind the plot will not assist us * a holistic approach to >> these issues will go a long way in sustaining, concretising and >> maintaining the unity and cohesion of our movement. >> >> I think all of us should agree that our movement has been seriously >> wounded, we should further agree with Cde Fikile Mbalula that Thabo >> Mbeki's indifference in relation to the current political conjecture >> and particularly the fact that whether he remains a cadre of the ANC >> or not are issues we should never dismiss out rightly, but at the same >> time we should not create an impression that the ANC will never >> survive an existence without him. >> >> By: Kaizer Mohau >> Potchefstroom >> North West Province >> Mobile: 072 080 2824 >> >> >> Writing in his total personal capacity >> >> >> >> This message and any attachments relating to official business of the >> Mpumalanga Provincial Government (MPG) is proprietary to the MPG and >> intended for the original addressee only. >> The message may contain information that is confidential and subject to >> legal privilege. Any views expressed in this message are those of the >> individual sender. >> >> If you receive this message in error, please notify the original sender >> immediately and destroy the original message. If you are not the >> intended recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that you >> must not disseminate, copy, use, distribute, or take any action in >> connection therewith. >> >> The MPG cannot insure that the integrity of this communication has been >> maintained, nor that it is free of errors, viruses, interception and / >> or interference. The MPG is not liable whatsoever for loss or damage >> resulting from the opening of this message and / or attachments and / or >> the use of the information contained in this message and / or >> attachments. >> >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------- > South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za ( http://www.webmail.co.za/ ) > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > For super low premiums, click here http://home.webmail.co.za/dd.pwm > > > > This message and any attachments relating to official business of the > Mpumalanga Provincial Government (MPG)is proprietary to the MPGand > intended for the original addressee only. The message may contain > information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. Any views > expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. If you > receive this message in error, please notify the original sender > immediately and destroy the original message. If you are not the intended > recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that you must not > disseminate, copy, use, distribute, or take any action in connection > therewith. The MPGcannot insure that the integrity of this communication > has been maintained, nor that it is free of errors, viruses, interception > and / or interference. TheMPGis not liable whatsoever for loss or damage > resulting from the opening of this message and / or attachments and / or > the use of the information contained in this > message and / or attachments. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za ( http://www.webmail.co.za/ ) ------------------------------------------------------------------ For super low premiums, click here http://home.webmail.co.za/dd.pwm <DIV This message and any attachments relating to official business of the Mpumalanga Provincial Government (MPG) is proprietary to the MPG and intended for the original addressee only. The message may contain information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. If you receive this message in error, please notify the original sender immediately and destroy the original message. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy, use, distribute, or take any action in connection therewith. The MPG cannot insure that the integrity of this communication has been maintained, nor that it is free of errors, viruses, interception and / or interference. The MPG is not liable whatsoever for loss or damage resulting from the opening of this message and / or attachments and / or the use of the information contained in this message and / or attachments. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You are subscribed. This footer can help you. Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to this message. You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email [email protected] . You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to put anything in the message part. All you have to do is to send an e-mail to this address (repeat): [email protected] . -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
