yeah agreed....in fact tyrants even paint crosses in their tanks to justify their gruesome acts in battlefields....evryone would like God to be on his side...but that doesn't mean God is on their side....Put it in another way...it doesn't mean that when you are doing bad in the name of good you are good...christianity expounds goodness...but even to-date when capitalist want to attack socialism...they sometimes use the church...why...BECAUSE THE CHURCH IS A SYMBOL OF GOODNESS...AND EVERYONE WANTS TO JUSTIFY HE'S ACTIONS AS BEING GOOD HENCE THE USE OF THE CHURCH...but if you can begin to view the mission of that profound institution..you'll find that it remains what it is....a vital organ in the struggle between humanisation and dehumanisation...it is a contested terrain...an organ in the civil society that has to be occupied...leaders come and go...but the church remains...and seemingly...it will be around for a very long time...now the point is instead of attacking the church...which many socialists have done...why don't we attack the real oppressors...the capitalists...the BIBLE says,"a camel would enter in a needle's eye if a rich man would enter HEAVEN"....so is there nothing familiar in that statement....because its the enemies of God who will never see HEAVEN according to the bible....therefore are capitalists not the enemies of God?...seems they are..according to the Bible...
Xoli Dlabantu On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Sithembewena tsembeyi <[email protected]>wrote: > dear cde xoli let me first acknowledge that i have been following your > latest contributions on this blog, i would have liked to contribute on this > discussion but however since my gadget limits me i will breifly pose few > questions on you so called sympathetic dilussions on christianity, in as > much dominatory it maybe and it being a fect that it is an opiam of mind, > wasnt it the same lame chrestianitt used by forces of imperialisim to humble > and antivate society and the working class as to such they believe socialism > and communism is evil, is it not the same compliment of dilution used by > forces of neo liberalism to unsettle and further divided us shoren on class > diffirences, culture, race and nationality well i will at the write time > further engage an seek to clearify you on this matter of fussional religion > as an urgent of divission that seek not only to defeat the class struggle > but also give rethorical anocho-syndicalist theraphy to our society by > saying only god knows, till then myfreind await my responce > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:09:30 > From: Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > > Cdes, > I've long wanted to open a debate around religion, but the problem > would be the angle I want to open it...From the church being an organ > on civil society that has been profaned by crass materialism or the > existence of God... > > Ok, allow me first to engage on the latter one and conclude with the > former. > 1. First, for one to utter such as words as the non-existence of God, > or His existance one should be informed by the background against > which such pronouncements were uttered. We need to first understand > that it is characteristic of any social > > revolution..(communal-slavery...slavery-fuedalism...feudalism-capitalism....imperialism-socialism) > in the process of negation of that socio-economic formation to > destroy the inherent ideology that seeks to justify that particular > existing oppressive socio-economic formation. EVERYTHING IS BROUGHT > BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF REASON...It therefore becomes natural to > question religion, if it will seek to justify the existence of > reactionary phenomena... > It was unfortunate for religion that in his thesis on dialectics of > nature, Hegel to mingle his philosophical outlook with religion and > Christianity in particular, to create an impression of his philosophy > was religion, which is not philosophy in the practical sense of the > word...Theology has philosophy, and in fact uses the same dialectics > as well as other phiosophies like Posivitism and others...Well, in the > process of the development of Marxism, Marx was exposed to the German > philosophy which concentrated solely on two schools of thought namely: > a) Dialectics by Hegel, as well as > b) Metaphysics by Feurburgh. > > Now the development of Materialist Dialectics as a world outlook was > influenced solely by these two philosophical outlooks, and notably, > their development was quite close and heated, if not emotional....when > they developed, Hegel's main abstract was that, "THE EXISTING IS > RATIONAL"..THERE'S AN INTERCONNECTION IN THE EXISTENCE OF PHENOMENA.. > and when translating that to the socio-economic challenges of the then > being industrialised Germany...it meant..WORKERS HAD TO LITERALLY WORK > 23 HOURS AND GET PAID MONEY TO EAT AND GET CLOTHED...AND THAT WAS ALL > THEY WERE ENTITLED TO as compensation... and the Hegelian philosophy > justified that....BECAUSE THE EXISTING as Hegel said...IS > RATIONAL...Now that was and it still is a problem...Now Feurburgh came > a diametricaly and a mutual exclusive view, which was quite mechanical > in response to say, 'NO...THE EXISTING IS NOT RETIONAL...THERE'S NO > INTERCONNECTION OF PHENOMENA...and he began to relate his > pronouncements to what was happen in the economic setup of > Germany...Now Karl Marx and Engels then..who grew up in Germany and > were seeking to find practical as well as philosophical justification > of those solutions, as part of the development of a body of knowledge > had to synthesise those two phenomena to say...NO...WAIT YOU ARE BOTH > RIGHT AND YET WRONG...IN THAT: > a) Yes there is interconnection of phenomena.. > b) dialectics and materialism at an optimal level are both right...but > c) the matter is the SUBJECT... > d) the idea is the predicate... > e) he went on to say that there is nothing like a supernatural being > who happens to have solutions to all our nature's problem... > on that basis, he went on to draft historical materialism( which was > influenced by the scientific discoveries of Charles Darwin) > > Now in this regard I would like to make an intervention...to say: > a) from an axiological point of view, human kind is always faced with > two challenges...humanisation and dehumanisation...in its pursuit to > its completion..(for we are not complete without having, as men and > women) > > b) the vocation of humans is humanisation...as against dehumanisation... > > c) dehumanisation usually negates humanisation only to affirm that as > time goes by... > c) religion is a tool in this primary human vocation... > > In trying to answer on the existence of God (or not) I would say, > Marxism as a doctrine is not yet complete...for as long as science is > not complete...for an example....in 1892...Engels negates Marx's view > that "...the value of a commodity is equal to the value of social > necessary labour time spent on its production ( which in actual fact > was Adam Smith)", to say that " the value of production is equal to > the cost of production...', now that points to what Marx himself said > when asked "What is your main dictum". He said,""De omnibus est > dubitandum" ("You have to doubt everything").the one which is so often > stupidly and foolishly attributed to Marx, that he was building a new > religion without God. The greatest scientist of all times, Albert > Einstein, who was there after Marx was, quited Christianity because he > said, " God was so awesome and so great for him to be worshiped the > way christians did. Now, that was a man of celestial insights about > the existence of Phenomena...anyway...what do you make of the fact tha > Einstein's discoveries are the exact opposite of what Newton said, > whilst both are practicable..so which one is the truth...can we on > that basis therefore attribute our existence..on the basis of > conflicting and yet very practicable phenomena... > The point I'm trying to make is: > i) it quite normal in a social revolution to put everything before the > judgement seat of reason...and it will justify evil or dehumanising > practises at its own peril..let me make one little example on this > one: > THE SACP WILL OPPOSE NATIONALISATIO AT ITS OWN PERIL....now I think we > can relate well to that... > the problem with the church all the past socio-economic formations is > that it has allowed itself to be in the mercies of the ruling class > which has eventually cloaked it with its dark hegemony... > The problem with the socialists on the other hand is that they have > sought to automatically aligned it with the ruling class instead of > contesting for its terrain as a vital organ of the civil society... > > Lastly, I've disccovered my religion christianity as a very fulfilling > way of life for me...light where there's darkness...hope where there's > hopelessness...for my family, it meant more love from me....for my > community more closeness with me...than in the past when I had to > treat everyone with suspiscion of being spies for whoever.... > and I think I understand why Daniel Ortega...the now President of > Nicaragua had to be a born again christian whilst being a > Socialist...and a President of a country out of all socialists.... > > Moreover, I don't really forsee in my right frame of mind...a 90% > christian nation being turned into atheists...because their persieved > route happens to be a socialist route...Christianity has survived the > test of all times and it has never failed..... > > On the question of Scientific basis of discovery...I wish to mention > that reality is that which exists outside our consciousness...and it > doesn't go woth scientific discovery...rather it is science that seeks > to discover phenomena...outside its control....those two are > separate...therefore the existence of the spiritual realm won't be > created by science...but will be discovered...like America...being > discovered by Christopher...whilst it had its own indegenous > inhabitats... > > Therefore mna...I don't attest to the view that the religion speaks of > non-existant things... > I don't want to get into my own very practical experiences with > Christianity....not for this forum...but comrade and friend...I've > seen spiritual wonders with my material eyes.... > > Anyway, I ascribe to the ideas of Marx in as far as the theory of > socialism as well as Political Economy..though the latter has to be > revised.... > > Comradely regards > Xoli Dlabantu > > > > On 2/12/10, howard matjomane <[email protected]> wrote: > > My fellow Leader, > > The problem with your article is critique without solution and infact you > > completely missed the point by mentioning the churches in their names > which > > to many might regard that as an attacked on their institutions resulting > in > > creating the historical perception that the communist is evil.At level > of > > your leadership i will assume you have knowledge and understanding of the > > mass and how difficult is to change one culture.While you have got the > point > > Comrade General you should have try to balance your article so that the > > readers can decide themselves instead of deciding for millions of > christians > > that their bishops are stealing their money. > > You should also have to take in account that you cannot change the > attitude > > of christians by mere writing of articles under the current conditions > > where propaganda machines and American cultural formations are well > > established accross the globe. > > > > We must understand comrades that majority of this christians are > > experiencing an extended poverty and the capital accumulation and self > > enrichment is only on the upper layer consisting of bishops and his/her > yes > > MEN and WOMEN.Ours is to redirect the current christians problems and > merge > > into our struggle.Ours comrade is to have the mass on our side to > intensify > > our sttruggle for socialism and finally communism. > > > > We may know that God does not exist on the bases of scientific > evidence,We > > may know that there is nothing like ancestors and we may know that bible > is > > document to delay the struggle for better life and is full of man made > > lies.All of the above cannot be understood by ordinary peasants and > workers > > and I can assusre comrade should you continue with that you will loose > the > > most important support and you will infact be delaying our road to > > socialism. > > > > In short it is important that when we provide political education we > must > > strtegically concentrate on the curent community problems and how YCL > can > > help the communities to overcome poverty instead of concentrating on > things > > that young and uneducated comrade from Ga-Moloi cannot understand. > > > > > > TamaKgoši, > > > > Howard > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:36 AM, patrick Mbatha > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> COMDRADE MAVIYO NDINISA youare raising a very sensetive issue and I > agree > >> with you however I feel that this is an attack to christianity not > >> religion > >> in general. > >> > >> > >> On 2/11/10, Ndinisa Maviyo <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> Let us engage on this discussion,enrich it. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You are subscribed. 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