Well, cde Aphiwe, I used the word mechanical to point out that you want us to apply rules as they are yet there are exceptions to any rule. For instance, cde Julius spoke openly and said most unpalatable things about former president Thabo Mbeki prior his removal from office. The very ANC leadership was found wanting and were quite about taking disciplinary action, instead they took tactical decision to speak to him internally. This is an incosistent application of the very Constitution you're defending. Hence, I disagree with this selective justice, because presently the offender does not serve the agenda of those who benefitted from his similar deeds. I trust you understand my point of departure, cde Aphiwe! Remain, Morgan Phaahla
"Sometimes, if you wear suits for too long, it changes your ideology." - Joe Slovo --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Aphiwe Bewana <[email protected]> wrote: From: Aphiwe Bewana <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Charging of four ANC members who are also nationalofficials of the ANCYL To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 6:11 AM Dear cde Morgan But my dear comrade, you are not being intellectually fair to this frank debate. In one hand you agree with me when I say any ill-discipline action or violation of the constitution ought to be taken as such…Here you agree by saying ‘I am not in anyway suggesting that the ANC must throw away the constitution and allow youth league to behave as they wish. I pointed out clearly that 'I fully agree that punishment must be meted out to anyone who undermines party resolutions and elected officials of the ANC in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.' However, when the ANC officials decided to charge these comrades you argue against this very same issue you agreed with, when you say "The constitution would not be compromised by virtue of the ANC taking a tactical approach to disciplinary issues." So what you are actually saying is that in this case, we must treat it differently, and when that happens we wont be creating bad precedence. Surely, any reasonable judge or observer can see that your argument is incoherent or fails to agree with itself in this regard. When I argue a very simple argument with simple message, you accuse me of being mechanical, actually its not the first time I have heard that one. And its neither true nor justifiable. It surely should be a worry, if some amongst us will see the constitution as mechanical tool rather than as one of tools that ought to guide us and support our decision making, rather than being led by what can be labeled “common sense”. May be we understand things way differently. The core issue is that charges are laid to a member(s) of the organisation, not the collective or the ANCYL leadership as some would like to claims. There is no need to even evoke any need to check balance of forces or any political insinuation for that matter. Lastly as much as I somewhat agree with your explanation of leadership, but it equally take leadership to see what ought to be an ill-discipline issue and what ought to be a political issue. And the more we see what distinguish what from what the better. On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dominic Tweedie <[email protected]> wrote: Cde Morgan, You have twice referred to "reading the riot act", if I am not mistaken, but you are using that phrase in a wrong sense. It would indeed be useful to remember what "reading the riot act" actually means. It means that the "riot act", or more precisely a verbal warning in terms of that act, is pronounced to a crowd so as to say, in effect, that if they do not disperse, they will be shot and killed. "Reading the riot act" does not mean shouting at people or humiliating them (as if that would do any good, anyway). If it means anything at all in the case of Julius Malema and the others, it means something that has already happened: namely, that Malema was found guilty and given a warning that if the same thing happened again he would be expelled. The "riot act" does not get read twice, comrade. What follows is either obedience, or fire. That's the whole point of the "riot act". You say: "The constitution would not be compromised by virtue of the ANC taking a tactical approach to disciplinary issues." This is sophism of the worst kind, comrade. For those who do not know what "sophism" is, I won't apologise for using an obscure word. As with the word "demagogy", maybe we did not need such words before the youth league started getting out of hand. "Sophism" means phrasemongering or word-juggling of the kind that sounds right but is actually rotten. You can't throw away the constitution at the moment when you need it, comrade. Best, VC On 25 August 2011 11:10, morgan phaahla <[email protected]> wrote: Dear cde Aphiwe, I think your approach is very mechanical as it fails consider far-reaching implications of such charges to our unity and the impact of the sanction to the present polarised state of our organisation. I am not in anyway suggesting that the ANC must throw away the constitution and allow youth league to behave as they wish. I pointed out clearly that 'I fully agree that punishment must be meted out to anyone who undermines party resolutions and elected officials of the ANC in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.' Blame it on the complacency of the political education department of the ANC. Leadership remains the issue here - ability to understand the balance of forces on the other hand while reflecting on potential obstacles to create unity in our movement, amid the succession battle. The constitution would not be compromised by virtue of the ANC taking a tactical approach to disciplinary issues. I don't think it wouldn't change anything or set a bad precedence if the ANC take a position of reading a riot act to the youth league with a rider for a mandatory political education. The issue is that we're dealing with the collective here not an individual, so the matter is particularly exceptional. Rules must be applied with exception, cde Aphiwe. Remain, Morgan Phaahla "Sometimes, if you wear suits for too long, it changes your ideology." - Joe Slovo --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Aphiwe Bewana <[email protected]> wrote: From: Aphiwe Bewana <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Charging of four ANC members who are also nationalofficials of the ANCYL To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 4:13 AM @ Morgan, surely we have a constitution for this reason, otherwise the ANC can stop to exist as political organization, but start to act like diplomatic organ. The ANC and its constitution is there to be defended at all cost, and I disagree with your 'thoughts' that the actions taken by the ANC officials do not or may not benefit our movement and the ANC in particular. Surely, ill-discipline ought to be treated as such, rather than as a matter of differing in political opinions, as that is neither desirable nor appropriate. If the actions committed by these charged ANC members do not amount to ill-discipline or violating provisions of the constitution, surely the disciplinary hearing will judge and announce as such, so I think we all ought to have trust in these structures, because, they seek defend the very constitution and the party. Lets not pre-judge before even our constitutional arrangements have not even announced their findings and recommendations. On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:47 AM, thabo mathiba <[email protected]> wrote: with that having been said,the new crew mighty get a 2 year suspended sentence,i just want to ask about julias,will he get a suspende sentence on top of the other?doesnt the sentence automatically became effective if found guilty?meaning the less sentence he can get is his 2 year sentence? On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:30 AM, morgan phaahla <[email protected]> wrote: Comrades, I don't think it will benefit our movement and the ANC in particular to write off ANCYL leadership under the circumstances. I fully agree that punishment must be meted out to anyone who undermines party resolutions and elected officials of the ANC in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution. However, what the ANC is faced with now requires an impact assessment analysis. Under the circumstances, I do not think it will be a strategic political move to punish individual members of the NEC of the ANCYL when the offence was actually committed by the collective. The situation calls for the NEC to convene an urgent meeting with young lions and read them a riot act for their unbecoming behavior in the eyes of the public and international community, without taking the disciplinary route. To this end, the ANCYL is correct to seek a withdrawal of charges in favour of political solution. I submit therefore that the ANC leadership committed a gross error of judgement by refusing to grant the ANCYL leadership a hearing after they have made a public apology, acknowledging their violation of the provisions of the Constitution and congress resolutions thereof. The situation is still allowing for withdrawal of charges, noting that the organisation is perplexed with the succession battle from within and without amid preparations to Mangaung Conference and the ANC centenary celebration. We need to guard against repeating Polokwane shenanigans and political mediocrity that followed thereafter - hence constructive engagement remains the only solution in this regard. Remain, Morgan Phaahla "Sometimes, if you wear suits for too long, it changes your ideology." - Joe Slovo --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Sikhumbuzo Thomo <[email protected]> wrote: From: Sikhumbuzo Thomo <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Charging of four ANC members who are also nationalofficials of the ANCYL To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 10:29 AM Pule can now go back his pan africanist roots and the rest there is plenty of room in the sell out organisations like COPE, UDM even the PAC! ST On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:11 PM, thabo mathiba <[email protected]> wrote: lol,now why dont i hear why the whole nec isnt charged? On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:05 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: What is this turning into? However, this leadership of the YL must be fully aware that they are not the first young energetic group that has ever existed in our movement... Plz allow the NDC to go with its processes and then draw from there... 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