Hahahahaha Am the Nun ! Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!
-----Original Message----- From: "linda schalk" <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:30:58 To: [email protected]<[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the Congress Movement? Lazola is our script writer with poor credentials and alarming ratings Sent from iPad -----Original Message----- From: Petunia Sent: 08/03/2012 15:39:16 Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the Congress Movement? Kwaaaaaa.....let's battle it out, some one shout, action! Lol.... Education shall be compulsory, universal, free and equal for all children! - The Freedom Charter: 1955 - -----Original Message----- From: Gugu Ndima <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:11:43 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the Congress Movement? No Petunia am the leading lady ....against the "stunt man" in this instance....hahahahahaha On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Petunia <[email protected]> wrote: > ** > > > Another take..lol, that makes us all extras in this intellectual scene or > screening! > > > Niyangi qhaza yaz' > > 'Each one teach one' > Education shall be compulsory, universal, free and equal for all children! > - The Freedom Charter: 1955 - > ------------------------------ > *From: *Aphiwe Bewana <[email protected]> > *Sender: *[email protected] > *Date: *Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:03:59 +0200 > *To: *<[email protected]> > *ReplyTo: *[email protected] > *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the > Congress Movement? > > *Another Take * > > ** > > Let us assume our ‘film director’ just uttered cut, so then we have to do > another take. Only hoping this time around it will be a final cut. I seek > not to find any absolute truth that exists beyond comrade Lazola Ndamase’s > observations and interpretations. In this regard I believe the statue does > not exist. > > > My entrance is the one which seeks to interplay my observations and his > with what society agrees as true, the purpose being to exchange ideas. I > never intended to *“lift even a single word or sentence in [Lazola’s] > paper to sustainable my allegations”, *because I imagined the proof was > [already] in the pudding.** > > > > I concluded, judging his views on the matter by saying “*all and all, you > attempt to justify why his [Malema’s] participation as an ANC member may be > short-lived”. *The closest single line or text that would vindicate my > judgment is the line wherein Lazola asserts that *“it is an indictment on > our movement that it has not been able to win comrade Julius Malema over to > its viewpoint since it recruited him at the age of 9 as he would have us > believe. When an organization arrives at this realization it has no choice > but to let go of its recruitee.”* *… {Evidence}* In this case I do > believe any other explanation outside or contrary to mine would be > mischievous. > > > > Cde Lazola who I also regard very highly wants us to believe that the > disciplinary measures taken by the ANC on Julius Malema are politically > (*sorry > ideologically*) motivated. However, this suggestion cannot be far from > the truth (*sorry my observation of the truth*). In his last sentence, > Lazola goes on to affirm this by saying “*but this has to be a political > function rather than a Disciplinary one”.* > > > > At hind-sight this insinuation may appear insignificant and harmless, but > it carries serious implications i.e. what are the limits on the ideological > framework of the ANC or how does the ANC treat those it deems as having > crossed over ideologically speaking? Besides the difficulty to having to > define the scope of ANCs ideology in all dimensions, one would find it very > hard and almost futile to start characterizing members based on their > ‘perceived’ individual standpoints. Even we can be 100% correct in > identifying and assigning someone’s ideology, what ought to concern the ANC > more is not the mere existence of such by how their actions compromise the > provisions as per the constitution. > > > > Personally, I am still to learn of any case wherein a member(s) of the ANC > are “*let go*” because they are ideologically outside the ANC scope or > limits. Even the very case of founding members of PAC we saw themselves as > more African than others, this “*let go*” was partly voluntary. In this > case, Julius wants to stay and is using all feasible avenues fighting for a > stay. I disagree with comrade Lazola, because his suggestions appear to > pursue ghosts where none actually exist. The issue is discipline let us > treat is as such. If it was not it was going to be very hard to justify > differing ideological perspective with discipline. I have heard many > arguing for a political settlement, but the constitution and code of > conduct of the organization is an embodiment of such a “political > settlement”. > > > > When all is lost the constitution is all we have, but in the wrong hands > even the holy bible can be the most evil entity in society! > > > > Libertarian Socialism > > Aphiwe Bewana > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 2:37 PM, morgan phaahla <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Revolutionary greetings, >> >> Cde Lazola, I've noted what you termed "short paper on >> Malema" premised from a resolutely subjective perspective to further >> contradict the multi-class character of the ANC as a broad church in its >> composition. >> >> The preamble of the ANC Constitution reads: "Whereas the African National >> Congress was founded in 1912 to defend and advance the rights of the >> African people after the violent destruction of their independence and the >> creation of the white supremacist Union of South Africa". This means the >> liberation of Africans in particular and black people in general from >> political and economic bondage. It means uplifting the quality of life of >> all South Africans, especially the poor. >> >> Therefore cde Lazola, divorcing the poor from African is a non starter >> as African people serve as the basis for the existence of the ANC, and >> African Nationalists in particular, whether you refer them as Pan >> Africanists or Cosmopolitan is a debate on its own, as all of them have >> found refuge in the ANC from its inception. >> >> This is the history that I want you to contextualise when constructing >> your next paper so it does not lose its credibility by virtue of >> being influenced by events. To single out cde Malema in this broad church >> is virtually subjective and may constitute fallacious reasoning. >> To this end, I am constrained to debate this question because of its lack >> of relevance. This must not be misconstrued as a defence for cde >> Malema because anyone may raise a counter argument and ask: 'Does Thami ka >> Plaatjie or Martinus van Schalkwyk belong to the ANC and the Congress >> Movement'. >> >> Such debates may set a very bad precedent for foreign tendencies to find >> expression in our movement. Hence it's problematic to use the circumstances >> of the ANCYL and cde Malema as a springboard to champion such devisive >> issues. >> >> I read and understood the premise of your "short paper on Malema" but I >> dismiss it as driven by factionalism. >> >> Remain, >> Morgan Phaahla >> >> "Sometimes, if you wear suits for too long, it changes your ideology." - >> Joe Slovo >> >> --- On *Thu, 3/8/12, Lazola Ndamase <[email protected]>* wrote: >> >> >> From: Lazola Ndamase <[email protected]> >> >> Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 2:06 AM >> >> >> Dearest comrades >> >> My apologies for not participating in this debate yesterday, something >> which I would have loved to do, but could not because I was in the COSATU >> March in JHB. I also welcome the responses to my short-paper and unlike >> comrade Sive Gumenge, I do not feel offended by any of the responses to >> this short-paper, including this one: "Ndamase must remember that this is >> not a movie since he always loves to be a Stunt man, maybe the problem is >> that he overrated himself as an organic intellectual." In the words of >> Engels: "*When one has been so long in the movement as I have, one >> develops a fairly thick skin against attacks...*" >> >> It would be delusional to pretend that debates on both the present and >> future of our movement will be characterised by congenial tea or dinner >> party exchanges, taking place during easy and polite conversations in the >> various communication mediums. No, they will be robust and I expected no >> less in relation to my short-paper on Malema. >> >> Far from "exposing the weakness" of my argument Comrade Aphiwe Bewana >> sidesteps my views altogether and erects a statue in their place which he >> so easily knocks down after that. He may have devoted a fairly >> comprehensive response to my short-paper but he gives the game away when in >> the absence of raw evidence of what he says I did he is forced to do a >> psycho-analysis of me as the author and alleges that my paper "*1. >> attempts to dissociate the embattled youth leader (Mr Malema) with the >> ideological scope or framework of the ANC, and 2. attempts to predict his >> ideological home through finding few peripheral links with Pan Africanism. >> All and all the attempt is to justify why his participation as an ANC >> member may be short-lived.*" >> >> Although bold in making the above allegations, comrade Aphiwe Bewana >> cannot lift even a single word or sentence in my paper to sustainable such >> allegations. The reader is thus supposed to believe what he says I did >> simply because he says so. Rather than empower the reader with evidence, he >> is left with no choice but to rely on faith on the infallibity of the >> author of such allegations. I have great respect for comrade Aphiwe Bewana, >> but am quite sure that he knows that his response fell short of its >> intentions. In order to get me out of the CINEMA as I'm supposed to be, >> comrade Aphiwe will have to marshal better arguments against my paper. >> >> By the way, a suggestion that a particular comrade harbors Pan-Africanist >> (read PAC-like) views does not as well suggest that the organization the >> person belongs to harbors such views as well and I'm quite sure that >> comrade Aphiwe knows he should not drag the ANCYL and the delegates to its >> Congresses to answer for Malema's views: "*This can go to an extent to >> saying the delegation of ANCYL in previous conference which has been >> agreeing on the very policy views which are now said to be Pan Africanist, >> was a Pan Africanist delegation.*" In my paper, I also make no statement >> that can be interpreted to mobilize such suspicion of ANCYL members. >> >> "Minister of Police, Minister of Intelligence, Minister of Justice — they >> are all Africans. But in the economics cluster, it’s minorities" Malema >> said in 2009. This reminds me of a former SASCO leader who took the time to >> count the number of Nguni's in the Zuma government and the number of >> non-Nguni's and on the basis of that concluded that the Zuma government was >> dominated by Nguni's. Such levels of tribal and racial consciousness are >> foreign to the movement and are to be found in the notion that suggests >> Africa for Africans associated with one Pan Africanist organization. >> >> Is it not Malema who instead of disagreeing with comrade Jeremy Cronin >> chose to tell us that we do not need a "white messiah" in reference to >> comrade Jeremy Cronin. Implicitly suggesting that he has no issue with a >> "messiah" per se in the political sense, but the fact that messiah is to be >> white is what he objects to. Of course, this statement was once said by >> Dumisani Makhaye to the same comrade Jeremy Cronin. The Party saw this for >> what it is and cautioned against a creeping: "African chauvinism". What is >> in the South African sense "African Chauvinism"? Isn't it the backward >> Pan-Africanism associated with the PAC? >> >> I do not deny, nor do I venture to the question of the New Tendency and >> Malema's relationship with it. I think I have written quite comprehensively >> about that subject in the past and thus there is no need to go back to that >> matter for now, I am quite sure that him being Pan-Africanist does not thus >> absolve him from being part of the New Tendency and thus I do not think on >> this score my arguments and those of Aphiwe are supposed to be >> diametrically opposed. >> >> I hope in my response comrades I was not in CINEMATIC mode as some >> suggest I find myself a movie from which I act "organic intellectual" when >> I write. >> >> Communist Regards >> >> Lazola Ndamase >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:52 PM, >> <[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> ** >> Haai Mbali u r doing the same thing u r stopping me from... Why isolate >> Madala? >> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you! >> ------------------------------ >> *From: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Sender: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Date: *Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:26:15 +0000 >> *To: >> *<[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *ReplyTo: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> @Sive >> Aphiwe is not attacking Lazola but attacking his views and exposing the >> weakness of his argument. Which is no different to what other comrades have >> done. I think your isolation of Aphiwe is unfair buti wam. >> >> Ta >> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device >> ------------------------------ >> *From: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Sender: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Date: *Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:11:51 +0000 >> *To: >> *<[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *ReplyTo: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> My problem with Aphiwe is that he wants to "burn a house, while we want >> to kill a mouse". The "devil" is not Lazola...it's malema... >> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you! >> ------------------------------ >> *From: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Sender: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Date: *Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:49:04 +0000 >> *To: >> *<[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *ReplyTo: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> Ubambe iposition qabane, "he didn't let the devil run away with the >> gospel" he was to the point. >> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you! >> ------------------------------ >> *From: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Sender: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Date: *Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:06:41 +0000 >> *To: >> *<[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *ReplyTo: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> Siboza, kubanjwe ntoni so that nathi sibambe qabane??? >> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you! >> ------------------------------ >> *From: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Sender: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Date: *Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:16:55 +0000 >> *To: >> *<[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *ReplyTo: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> Well said cde Aphiwe, >> >> I could not have said it any better myself, uyi bambile Shlalo >> >> I thank you >> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you! >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *Aphiwe Bewana >> <[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>> >> >> *Sender: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Date: *Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:06:34 +0200 >> *To: >> *<[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *ReplyTo: >> *[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> Malema belong(ed) to the ANC >> >> >> >> I have gone thru comrade Lazola’s input and could not help to draw a >> conclusion that comrade author is attempting to do two core things: 1. >> attempts to dissociate the embattled youth leader (Mr Malema) with the >> ideological scope or framework of the ANC, and 2. attempts to predict his >> ideological home through finding few peripheral links with Pan Africanism. >> All and all the attempt is to justify why his participation as an ANC >> member may be short-lived. >> >> >> >> The fundamental limitation with cde Lazola’s input is that the same >> issues that he raises as determining that Mr Malema’s ideological standing >> ought to be characterized as Pan Africanist can be said to several other >> leaders in the ANC currently. This can go to an extent to saying the >> delegation of ANCYL in previous conference which has been agreeing on the >> very policy views which are now said to be Pan Africanist, was a Pan >> Africanist delegation. Here I do not even want to invoke a debate the >> dynamics and interplay of personal ideology and organizational standpoints. >> >> >> >> I completely disagree with the characterization of Julius as Pan >> Africanist on basis of few tangential pronouncements. The avenue which I >> saw as better explaining the whole fiasco around the Jujumania >> (conceptually and ideological), is the whole issue of the New Tendencywhose >> key >> tactic to use of strident nationalist (and sometimes Africanist) rhetoric >> to justify a patronage politics that hopes to use money to gain position >> and position to gain more money. That ought to be our point of departure >> in attempting to deal with the New Tendency as embodiment of unscrupulous >> petty bourgeois tendency engulfing our liberation politics rather than as >> object or person. The core issue is not Malema per se but the unscrupulous >> culture that is spreading, which can be replicated in any youth leader in >> the ANC. >> >> >> >> In cautioning against dangers of rhetoric by opportunists, Vladimir Lenin >> writes *‘there are, however, moments, when a question must be raised >> sharply and things given their names, the danger being that otherwise >> irreparable harm may be done to the party and the revolution’. * >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Juma Ali >> <[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> Great article Cde. Lazola. >> >> My main problem though is whether Malema's problems in the ANC are due to >> his perceived Pan-African radicalism or due merely to political expediency. >> For sure, one of the charges that remained was that of bringing the ANC to >> disrepute with his comments about the regime in Botswana which were seen to >> be at odds with ANC policies, but the merits of ascribing ideological >> differences to his disciplinary process are debatable against those of mere >> political expediency. >> >> Juma. >> >> *From:* Lazola Ndamase >> <[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> >> > >> *To:* >> [email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>; >> yclsa-eom-forum >> <[email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>> >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 6, 2012 11:01 AM >> *Subject:* [YCLSA Discussion] Does Malema belong to the ANC and the >> Congress Movement? >> >> Does Malema belong to the ANC? >> >> The ANC is not ideologically pure. It would be dishonest to suggest so. >> Any way as a multi-class organization it is bound never to be. Any national >> liberation movement worth its salt has a responsibility to attract the >> broadest sections of the oppressed in order to succeed in its struggle. In >> order to ensure unity within its ranks whilst maintaining its broad appeal, >> it has a responsibility to set out an all inclusive, less stringent >> ideological perspective whilst at the same time allowing enough space for >> various ideological standpoints to contest for hegemony within. >> >> However, although tolerant to divergent ideological standpoints within >> its ranks it has a responsibility to draw the line, or set broad parameters >> about its ideological standing. That’s exactly what the ANC did in relation >> to African chauvinism, or what in a more sophisticated sense is termed >> Pan-Africanism. This does not mean our movement believes Pan-Africanists >> are counter-revolutionary, it just believes that they are not as >> progressive as it would prefer. >> >> Contrary to the ANC, comrade Malema is not a progressive nationalist, >> something to which the ANC has evolved to base its Africanism; in contrast >> he is a Pan-Africanist. The primacy of his ideas is Pan-Africanist rather >> than Progressive Nationalist. His ideas resonate well with those of other >> Pan-Africanist youth organizations in the continent which have openly >> declared support for him such as Zanu-PF and the liberation movement of >> Tanzania Chama cha Mapinduzi. This is in contrast to the silent treatment >> he has received from our traditional allies such as Frelimo of Mozambique >> and the MPLA of Angola. >> >> In him, Pan-Africanists in the continent saw themselves. His >> Pan-Africanism is also the reason why the term “African Child” has found >> new popularity since he became President of the ANCYL. Before him, by the >> way, this term did not belong to the vocabulary of the Congress Movement >> but to that of the Pan-Africanists such as the PAC, AZAPO and other similar >> movements. >> >> Another term barely used in the movement popularized by Malema is the >> word “settler”, a word Julius brought us from the Pan-Africanist >> dictionary. The Congress Movement barely used this term, even in our songs, >> or chants. The closest an ANC member got to this would be through the use >> of the word Boer. Note, even the most controversial chant done in the >> movement “kill the Boer: the farmer”, still does not contain the word >> “settler”. “One settler, one bullet” was not a slogan of the ANC but that >> of the PAC, and our cadres were not cultured to speak in this way, hence we >> could not chant in this way. >> >> The fact that he is Pan-Africanist, does not suggest that comrade >> Malema’s ideas are not left leaning, or less radical, in actual fact, he is >> a bloody radical one. His Pan-Africanism, is what I believe drives his >> radicalism, despite the fact that his location in class society should have >> driven him otherwise. It is not in spite of his Pan-Africanism but because >> of it that he is so radical. Although stinking rich, he being an “African >> Child” cannot bear to see the impoverishment of another “African Child” >> particularly while he, the rich one, is surrounded by “white settlers” in >> rich society. This is completely painful for the “African child”. The fact >> that comrade Malema, was born from an African working class family >> strengthens this point of view, particularly his idea that the enemy is not >> the capitalist per se, which he himself is, but the “white capitalist”. >> >> His infatuation with “white" monopoly capital does not stem only from the >> ANC’s characterization of monopoly capital as a threat to development but >> arises from his own realization that it is the face of white opulence. The >> fact that monopoly capital to him, has a color is one other interesting >> fact. Of course, I am not denying that Monopoly capital is largely white, >> but the fact that in Malema’s eyes it seems not all Monopoly Capital is an >> enemy of the revolution but only assumes that role because its white. Even >> on the question of conspicuous consumption. Comrade Malema often retorts >> whether it should only be white youth that should dress in a particular way >> or not? He makes this point at every turn: even lamenting that rich “white” >> boys drive expensive cars in Sandton and nobody complains. >> >> By the way, Pan-Africanism is not just radical but also uncompromising. >> Comrade Malema is cut from the same cloth. My view though is that, its >> South African version is unscientific. It will never be able to resolve the >> race question in South Africa but would exacerbate it. Of course, when the >> struggle for liberation is still in its infancy, Pan-Africanism or Black >> Consciousness is necessary to uplift the self-worth of the oppressed and >> rouse them to stand up against their oppression. But it usually can go no >> further. >> >> Comrade Julius Malema should not have joined the ANC in the first place. >> He does not belong there and he does not share its ideas. Of course, for >> numerical purposes we must be thankful that he chose to join the ANC rather >> than the PAC or AZAPO. He must be more thankful that his Pan-Africanist >> tendencies were not discovered early on before he could rise up the >> organizational ladder. For this, he must thank our now pathetic recruitment >> system which holds that anyone with a membership form and fee is almost a >> member. >> >> Surely, I am not suggesting that our movement should not have looked to >> the Africanists to recruit. Anyway, the brightest in the liberation >> movement are often located in these organizations, but it is an indictment >> on our movement that it has not been able to win comrade Julius Malema over >> to its viewpoint since it recruited him at the age of 9 as he would have us >> believe. When an organization arrives at this realization it has no choice >> but to let go of its recruitee, but this has to be a political function >> rather than a Disciplinary one. -- >> You are subscribed. This footer can help you. >> Please POST your comments to >> [email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>or >> reply to this message. >> You can visit the group WEB SITE at >> http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery >> options, pages, files and membership. >> To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email >> [email protected]<http://us.mc1301.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>. >> You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. 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