<https://studycircle.wikispaces.com/6+CU+Chris+Hani+Archive> CU Chris Hani Archive.png Interview by Luli Callinicos on 31 March 1993 with Chris Hani (Passage on the necessity of building organisation) L To what extent the ANC encouraged the anti-apartheid movement across the board, but to what extent did the ANC actually initiate these things, like for instance there has been a debate about to what extent SACTU was right there from the beginning in 73 with the unions. I think that FOSATU, the young intellectuals, without a sense of history, probably had no idea what was happening on the ground. CH You know, Luli, if there was any organisation which helped to initiate the unity of the unions in this country, it is the ANC and the alliance, in the 70s. We actually, through SACTU, and through the CP, established contacts with trade unionists in this country. Before '73. Quiet contacts. I was in Lesotho from '75. I was nearby and I was having meetings with SAWU, with GAWU, with individuals from FOSATU. As individuals, not FOSATU as an organisation because FOSATU was not monolithic. In FOSATU we had elements which were pro SACTU, pro ANC, pro CP. You had syndicalists, you had elements which were hostile to the old tradition of the trade union struggle, who were influenced by developments in the ICFTU and other organisations. So there was a struggle, say about the tendencies within FOSATU. But our approach was that whatever, we must form one federation in SA. We should bring together, weld together, all these tendencies. We should go to what was called the populist or charterist unions, which were very close to the ANC Congress tradition. Like SAAWU, like GAWU, like the Food and Canning Workers Union. And then weld them together with those which had been promoted and founded by intellectuals, and as a result of the old Wages Commissions Board and everything. Influenced by the New Left. Without traditions of struggle. Those who didn't see the trade unions as a component part of the national liberation struggle. Our approach has always been to say the trade union struggle is part of the broad national liberation struggle. That the victory of the national liberation struggle would actually create better conditions for the workers in this country, and that the workers had to participate in the struggle. They would not have to remain on the sidelines as spectators. If in the final analysis we got a COSATU. It was because of the influence we had built up. The influence we had initiated into the unions, especially SACTU. SACTU, the CP and the ANC. Because the strategy of SACTU were strategies discussed between SACTU the CP and the ANC. I am happy to say that if today we have a militant revolutionary trade union movement, it was because of the slow, grinding, pushing strategy of influencing all these trade unions in FOSATU. We didn't say because some elements rejected us in FOSATU, we didn't say, no, no, no, to hell with them. We felt that it was our duty to engage ourselves in the struggle to influence FOSATU. To contest the influence with the New Left, with neo liberal elements, because FOSATU was a mixture of all things. And I think ultimately we have succeeded in building a federation which ultimately became close to the national liberation struggle. L Can you comment about the ANC's involvement in the civics? CH Yes. In the 80s we felt that we needed to build the unity of our people in the struggle against an imposed system of community councils. The community councils were seen by us as being undemocratic and being manipulated by the state. These were state organs ultimately. And we also detected that the community councils were set up by the regime in order to destroy the influence of our movement in the townships and the locations. And therefore as far back as '77, '78, after the banning of the Black Consciousness (BC) movements, we felt that we needed to form civics so that people could have a forum that cut across ideological affiliations, that cut across political affiliations. A movement that would bring into its fold those who were pro PAC, pro BC, pro ANC, pro CP. And that the key task and the key demand was to fight for bread and butter issues that affected our people. You don't say to people, come and join us, we want to overthrow this regime and have a democratic government. You must be seen to be having a concern for better housing, for electrification, for water, for lighting, for streets, for schools. And therefore we saw civics as a terrain of struggle that would bring together all our people on the basis of their common problems, their common concerns for a better life. To mobilise people on bread and butter issues. I think the strategy worked well and saw the emergence of the civic movement in the country, which became a key element in the struggles in the Eastern Cape around PEBCO, in the Western Cape around CAHAC, in the Transvaal around the Soweto Civic Association which began to spread to other areas. And I think that element of struggle, the civic struggle, also made an important contribution in building a vibrant mass democratic movement (MDM) which totally undermined the stooge organisations, the puppet organisation of the councils, the urban councils, the community councils. 1986 saw the beginning of the crisis of the community councils when councillors began to resign as a result of the strength and the power of the civic movement. And as a result of MK activities and the MDM, because it began to get isolated from many people in the townships. And now today, SANCO has become a national civic movement. It has got a few teething problems, but it is there now. It has really impacted itself on the South African scene. It is going to be an important organ of civil society in future. Defending the rights of ordinary citizens in this country, black and white. Where you would be having tax-based municipalities, and where democracy is not going only to be seen at the level of parliament and the cabinet, but we are going to be seeing democracy vibrant at grassroot levels. L I have been writing about the civics and I have come across people in Kagiso who say of a comrade, the first time they thought about civic organisations is when somebody had a meeting, and talked to them about it. And then they disappeared. They were actually a member of MK. Were MK moving around in the community...? CH You see, what I want to say, Luli, what people don't understand is the fact that every MK comrade was trained not just to shoot or to place a bomb. Part of the integrated training of MK was part of being political organisers. They were taught that, look, you won't survive if you don't create organisations around yourselves. You have got to build up the underground, you have got to build the mass movement, you have got to build civics, you have got to help in the building of trade unions. So wherever MK comrades came into this country they would actually set up political discussion groups. To discuss strategies, to discuss the need to form organisation, mass organisation. That was our approach, that you won't survive, you must be like the fish and for the fish to survive, you must have water in which it will swim and survive. So that was our approach, and a lot of MK comrades participated in setting up student structures, civic structures, trade union structures. We said to them it is important for every MK cadre to deepen the political consciousness of our people: To produce leaders. That it was not enough for you to just be a leader in that area, you must reproduce yourself ten times and even twenty times. L Wasn't this risky for security? CH It was risky but it was necessary. If they did not build this organisation, they would have been isolated. If you look at our survival record, where there were organisations, civic, trade union and underground, our people survived better. Because they would be able to move from one place to another assisted by people who were committed. And this commitment could only come out of proper politicisation. It was risky, but it was a risk that we had to undertake. 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