Yojimbo-Talk List Digest #681
1) Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
by Keith Ledbetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Almost happy with Yojimbo the way it is
by infrahile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
by "Scott J. Lopez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
by "Robertson Dale A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) I use Yojimbo for..
by "Scott J. Lopez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple Databases.
by infrahile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: I use Yojimbo for..
by Carlton Gibson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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From: Keith Ledbetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 2, 2008 3:08:03 PM CDT
Subject: Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple
Databases.
On May 2, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Luis Roca wrote:
Lorin and Kenneth identified the real issue very well. I think a
lot of
the discomfort with not having nested folders is due to a habit of
putting off properly identifying an item. We keep bringing up the
book
“Getting Things Done” but the idea of nested folders and multiple
library databases are in stark contrast to the very first steps of
GTD.
Folders poorly identify information. At best they just create more
inboxes. Because you haven’t properly identified the specific item
you
will waste more time searching six weeks down the road when you
need to
produce a receipt, or email the photo of your family eating pizza in
Times Square to your sister. Tagging is a far more fluid way to
identify
something at the very moment it enters your system.
Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is "perfect" for
your way of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to
think that everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes
organize our data in physical divisions.
And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital
junk drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able
to "fit" into the GTD principles.
Keith
From: infrahile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 2, 2008 3:47:52 PM CDT
Subject: Re: Almost happy with Yojimbo the way it is
Thanks for your response Steve, great to have some direct answers
from the guy who kicked it all off :o)
Now, naturally, I want more! :o)
In the past I've drawn a distinction between 'nested folders' and a
means to group collections in the sidebar. I see these as distinct
things and I've copied the original post below where I go into more
detail on the issue. My question is, do you see these as one and the
same or would you consider the latter as a different feature
request. To me nested folders means hierarchical organisation and
I'd be the first to agree this is not necessary, I'd be interested
in your view on the matter.
I appreciate there's more than one way to skin a cat and to my mind
a different approach to tag navigation could obviate the need for
this, but as an interface designer myself I'm keeping my cards close
to my chest on that one as I have a particular solution in mind for
a project of my own! ;o)
Regards, T.
Extract from that previous post…
Tag collection grouping
OK, hopefully no one thinks I'm trying to pull a fast one and change
the name of the game from 'nested folders' but on reviewing the
previous threads again I think the debate gets sidetracked into one
of hierarchy vs. tagging - a fine debate in it's own right but not
really what I'm after as a feature request. I'm really very happy
with tag & search approach for many things, but for quick reference
and ad-hoc corralling of tagged information I use tag collections
extensively. I have a lot of them, too many to be easily reviewable
in one long multi-page scrolling list - not (I'll pre-empt the
inevitable response) in some vain attempt to re-impose an old
fashioned hierarchy, but simply to take advantage of the benefits of
tagging for the purposes of browsing (as opposed to searching). It
is a pain to only be able to sort these tag collections
alphabetically (even with alpha-numeric prefixes) in one long list.
The long and short of it is that, for whatever reason, i have a lot
of tag collections, all I really need is a more control over how
they are organised and presented, a single level of grouping would
do just fine. I can see how this could cause ambiguity leading to an
impression of support for deep hierarchy but i doubt this is
insurmountable - perhaps some judicious use of naming to
conceptually divorce 'tag collections' from 'collections' and a
visually distinct icon to further distinguish the concepts might
overcome this problem? Or maybe separating smart collections,
collections, and tag collections with sub-titles in the sidebar as
iTunes does would do the trick?
On 1 May 2008, at 14:20, Steve Kalkwarf wrote:
I'm not singling out Rhet, but there are several ideas embodied in
this paragraph that bear comment:
If someone from BareBones does pipe in, it's usually to say "We're
never going to add that feature. See previous post..." This
compares poorly to several other indie-Mac software lists I'm on
(such as the forum for Leap and Yep, both excellent applications: http://www.ironicsoftware.com/)
where the developer is happy to get feedback on what users
actually want and participates in the dialogue.
Let me start off by saying no matter what I, or another Bare Bones
representative says, a large number of people will be unhappy. For
years we said "Thanks for the feedback, and we'll consider adding
this functionality". Then, email every time we shipped an update
we'd get a "reminder" email, asking why the feature wasn't in that
version. Other people waited and waited for the feature to arrive,
but it wasn't going to. I thought that was unfair.
Now, if a feature request has a known disposition, we generally
share that answer. Nested folders? No. If you _have_ to have that
feature, you will be better off elsewhere. Does this compare
"poorly" with other companies? I don't know. I prefer the honest
answer, whether it makes people happy or not.
Another assumption (again, not picking on Rhet) is that
implementing every feature request is a good idea. If you take a
step back and look at the types of requests people make, with rare
exception (nested folders, smart collections, better tag
management) they are particular to the requester's existing
workflow. The "one feature I have to have" is not the one feature
you have to have, or Charlie has to have, or probably more than a
couple people have to have.
The implied assumption that tends to go along with almost any
request is that adding feature X doesn't increase the complexity of
Yojimbo. That is untrue.
In a past life, I spent countless hours helping novice Mac users
find the files they had lost, because they had no idea where they
were saving, or because they saved all their files in the Word
folder, and when they updated Word, lost everything. The average
computer user is overwhelmed by choices, and as simple as this
sounds, every feature or menu item represents a choice. By no means
am I the authority on simplicity vs. complexity, but our goal was
to make Yojimbo powerful, yet simple to use.
Another interesting belief carried by most power users (and I
include myself in this group) is that they are representative of
all users. This can't be farther from the truth.
Everybody on this list sees the mailing list posts. I see those,
and tech support inquiries. There are more support inquires than
there are posts on this list. Way more. I can assure you that
everyone on this list is head and shoulders above most customers
writing in for help.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading. As your reward, a
summary of the popular requests, and their status:
Nested folders: Sorry, no.
Smart collections: Yes, near the top of the list.
Better tagging interactions: Nearer the top of the list.
Stuff nobody has asked for: At the top of the list. And before
anyone asks why stuff nobody asked for is higher up than the
"one feature I have to have," remember, nobody asked us to
write Yojimbo, either.
Updates to other Bare Bones products: What do you think we've been
doing since the last Yojimbo update? :-)
Steve
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From: "Scott J. Lopez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 2, 2008 5:19:03 PM CDT
Subject: Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple
Databases.
No one said Yojimbo is a GTD tool, but apparently people use it for
that given the number of posts that reference it. There are several
Mac programs specifically for GTD actually, should anyone want them
(search versiontracker.com).
As for someone being "pompous" isn't it a little "pompous" for all the
people saying that Yojimbo _has to have_ XXX feature or the program is
worthless/useless/they won't buy it. As I've pointed out in a previous
post, there is a trial period (thank you Bare Bones) with using
Yojimbo. If it doesn't fit your needs, move on, but whining on this
list "I won't buy it because it doesn't have XXX" is pretty bad. I can
understand why BB won't respond to feature request emails any more
with an attitude like that. Yojimbo obviously has all the features
Bare Bone wanted to put into it, if someone wants something different
they could write it up themselves.
Now I didn't mean to turn this into a flame war, but I'm pretty tired
of hearing people complain Yojimbo won't make coffee, clean up after
the dog, and turn down their beds at night. This is supposed to be a
support list, a place to share with each other how we use Yojimbo,
tips and tricks, etc.
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Keith Ledbetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is "perfect" for
your way
of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to think
that
everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes organize our
data in
physical divisions.
And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital
junk
drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able to
"fit" into
the GTD principles.
Keith
From: "Robertson Dale A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 2, 2008 6:54:31 PM CDT
Subject: Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple
Databases.
HEAR HEAR!
On May 2, 2008, at 18:19, Scott J. Lopez wrote:
No one said Yojimbo is a GTD tool, but apparently people use it for
that given the number of posts that reference it. There are several
Mac programs specifically for GTD actually, should anyone want them
(search versiontracker.com).
As for someone being "pompous" isn't it a little "pompous" for all
the
people saying that Yojimbo _has to have_ XXX feature or the program
is
worthless/useless/they won't buy it. As I've pointed out in a
previous
post, there is a trial period (thank you Bare Bones) with using
Yojimbo. If it doesn't fit your needs, move on, but whining on this
list "I won't buy it because it doesn't have XXX" is pretty bad. I
can
understand why BB won't respond to feature request emails any more
with an attitude like that. Yojimbo obviously has all the features
Bare Bone wanted to put into it, if someone wants something different
they could write it up themselves.
Now I didn't mean to turn this into a flame war, but I'm pretty tired
of hearing people complain Yojimbo won't make coffee, clean up after
the dog, and turn down their beds at night. This is supposed to be a
support list, a place to share with each other how we use Yojimbo,
tips and tricks, etc.
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Keith Ledbetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is "perfect" for
your way
of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to think
that
everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes organize our
data in
physical divisions.
And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital
junk
drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able to
"fit" into
the GTD principles.
Keith
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From: "Scott J. Lopez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 2, 2008 7:32:30 PM CDT
Subject: I use Yojimbo for..
I want to start a positive thread on what interesting things everyone
uses Yojimbo for.. Maybe everyone could post one interesting thing
they use the application for, we all might find some new uses..
So here's mine..
I use Yojimbo for saving receipts when I make online purchases. I use
the "Print PDF to Yojimbo" instead of printing out a paper receipt, I
tag it with a few keywords ("receipt", date, purpose, items) and drop
it in a "receipts" folder. I also Print to PDF or download in PDF (and
drop into Yojimbo any relevant Rebates). Very fast, easy and I always
can look back at what I bought. I also Print to PDF any emailed
receipts that I might not have gotten on a web page (mostly when
buying software).
From: infrahile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 2, 2008 8:41:48 PM CDT
Subject: Re: The Real Issue With Nested Folders and Multiple
Databases.
Personally, along as it's civil, I think a bit of heated debate is
all good fun - livens things up a bit!
:o)
T.
On 2 May 2008, at 23:19, Scott J. Lopez wrote:
No one said Yojimbo is a GTD tool, but apparently people use it for
that given the number of posts that reference it. There are several
Mac programs specifically for GTD actually, should anyone want them
(search versiontracker.com).
As for someone being "pompous" isn't it a little "pompous" for all
the
people saying that Yojimbo _has to have_ XXX feature or the program
is
worthless/useless/they won't buy it. As I've pointed out in a
previous
post, there is a trial period (thank you Bare Bones) with using
Yojimbo. If it doesn't fit your needs, move on, but whining on this
list "I won't buy it because it doesn't have XXX" is pretty bad. I
can
understand why BB won't respond to feature request emails any more
with an attitude like that. Yojimbo obviously has all the features
Bare Bone wanted to put into it, if someone wants something different
they could write it up themselves.
Now I didn't mean to turn this into a flame war, but I'm pretty tired
of hearing people complain Yojimbo won't make coffee, clean up after
the dog, and turn down their beds at night. This is supposed to be a
support list, a place to share with each other how we use Yojimbo,
tips and tricks, etc.
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Keith Ledbetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Luis, we're all really, really happy that Yojimbo is "perfect" for
your way
of gathering information. But it's quite pompous of you to think
that
everyone else is wrong because we like to sometimes organize our
data in
physical divisions.
And, repeat after me, YOJIMBO IS NOT A GTD TOOL. It is a digital
junk
drawer; a tool that you have just been lucky enough to be able to
"fit" into
the GTD principles.
Keith
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From: Carlton Gibson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 3, 2008 3:22:08 AM CDT
Subject: Re: I use Yojimbo for..
On 3 May 2008, at 01:32, Scott J. Lopez wrote:
I want to start a positive thread on what interesting things everyone
uses Yojimbo for.. Maybe everyone could post one interesting thing
they use the application for, we all might find some new uses..
So here's mine..
I use Yojimbo as a temporary store for things until I've got time to
organise them properly.
I don't want to store things in Yojimbo permanently as I already
have a file system manager with labels, and comments and full text
search -- one with nested folders, and as powerful a set of smart
folders that one could wish for (until the next Model-T replaces our
current horse that is). There's no way, for permanent storage, that
I'd ever give up the power of the file system.
Passwords *end up* in my Keychain.
Bookmarks I want to keep *end up* in Safari.
Everything else ends up in the *correct* folder.
There is such a thing as the *correct* folder as there are such
things as objective hierarchies -- ones which capture real
relationships between things. You can think of genus-species
groupings in biology, or project-file groupings in your work. Where
such groupings exist, a hierarchical file structure has real value,
but they take some thinking about to be stable/valuable-- which is
why the profession of 'librarian' exists for one. Yojimbo -- and
tagging -- fills a nice gap for me while I'm still working these
things out (or in the middle of something else important when the
new bit of stuff arrives).
Others may take a different approach, this is mine.
Regards,
Carlton
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