"However the training of buddhism teach us to be less attached to it,
whether the situation/state is good or bad and train us to view any
phenomena as  "equal/normal" , thus...thus..."

Yes! Thus, maximizing one's flexibility, one can finally and truly be able
to expressively contort in every way without attaching to any words or
doctrine and saying things in a different way suited for appropriate
audiences.

You have my full agreement, especially with the Zen-is-a-direct-route idea.
[I basically said what you just said in a waaay longer story-method in my
earlier post.]

P.S.: This is all expressed in "Measuring" (book originally mentioned).

On 4/6/06, czqian3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  well, just for some sharing. My shifu said that there are 3 basic
> zen meditation problems most people had, first one is having extreme
> stray thoughts , second is falling asleep during meditation, third
> is fallen into dull emptiness, which is very dangerous. Dull
> emptiness (wu-ji) in chinese is a state that one does not know if
> there is anything that happen at all, lost of ability to
> discriminate/to know what's going on around and there is a high
> chance that external demons may possess the human body.
>
> Using skandhas as a tool of expressing the teachings, there is a
> saying that if one has not got pass the conceptual skandha barrier,
> one should not hide himself in the mountain but to practise with
> other zen fellow and most importantly his/her shifu; if one has not
> got pass the formations/volitional skandha, one should not go for a
> retreat in his own little zen room. But if we have the 6th patriarch
> type of dhamrma root, all these are not really relevant.
>
>
> The great thing about zen compare to other meditation techniques is
> it is a direct path to break the conceptual skandhas barrier, and to
> the harder to express formation/volitional and consciousness skandhas
> (bcos we cannot really imagine what's that about) ; relative to
> other meditation techniques who need to get pass the form and
> feeling skandhas first.
>
>
> In my opinion, as a layman, we need to discriminate things/know
> what's happening in daily life. However the training of buddhism
> teach us to be less attached to it, whether the situation/state is
> good or bad and train us to view any phenomena as  "equal/normal" ,
> thus...thus...
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Ahmed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I'm Ahmed. I think the questions we are talking about are
> pretty
> > important. Especially when I saw the word "skandha," I felt a need
> to
> > thoroughly explain the term since it is so deep. Especially when
> skandhas
> > are a neat classification system of the universe--all forms and
> movements,
> > body or mind--the small dictionary definition will not do. But it
> would take
> > a while to explain subsets and subsets of subsets . . . to map
> things out
> > would take a great book to guide the discriminative thinking of
> our mind.
> >
> >
> > [Please skip eight paragraphs if you agree with the usefulness of
> mental
> > discrimination, classification, organization and cutting the world
> into
> > pieces.]
> >
> >
> > Bill Smart, I think you would disapprove of my mental
> discrimination with me
> > on this point. "In fact the ONLY thing that is important is to sit
> (zazen),"
> > you replied once. Sitting is important but not ONLY.
> >
> > "Being knowledgeable or understanding things about zen, Buddhism,
> the
> > Dharma, Sutras, Taoism, Hindi, yoga, physiology, philosophy,
> etc..., are not
> > important at all.  They're fun, but not important."
> >
> > Can you tell me discrimination is not useful in saving lives, in
> planning
> > for the future, in discovering and solving interpersonal issues,
> and in
> > advancing science not only for better physical understanding but
> also
> > spiritual understanding and acceptance? What about for a job? Does
> one sit
> > down and get paid in this world?
> >
> > Sure, sitting unifies one with the universe so that one has
> greater energy
> > and capacity to understand. In fact, one MUST sit and BE in order
> to evolve
> > one's theoretical knowledge to insight. But it is hard to imagine
> that one
> > comes up with solutions magically from sitting.
> >
> > Once again, understanding the principles throughout the universe
> (of yin,
> > yang and their many products), can these be called unimportant to
> one's
> > mundane life and spiritual cultivation? True Buddhas must
> have "skillful
> > means," methods of teaching which take into account context,
> audience, and
> > environment. Buddhas must know of how the mind works (psychology)
> and the
> > positions of others (Hindu, Muslim, Christian, this-and-that
> philosopher
> > etc.) in order to compassionately guide him/her out or into a
> certain train
> > of thought. Buddhas do not rigidly sit there, teaching corpses to
> become
> > schizoids.
> >
> > I hope I have gotten my point across: mental discrimination is a
> difficult
> > process to master, a process that cannot be ignored, despite the
> paradoxical
> > nature of ideas, especially if one aims to be a Buddha.
> >
> > Also, the downside, mental discrimination is a process many people
> have a
> > habit of using too much nowadays, me included, and if you tell
> someone to
> > "'just sit' they'll probably just be spacing out most of the time
> becuase
> > they have no concentration." (dkotschessa)
> >
> > But with mental discrimination one can logically explain to
> another personal
> > the benefits and effects of meditation thus counteracting their
> > discrimination within their own world of rules. One can even
> understand the
> > conditions and causes of meditative rest and better be able to
> handle issues
> > when they arise and help others if they request it. This is called
> using
> > "fire to fight fire." Using the thinking mind itself to learn to
> stop
> > itself.
> >
> >
> > [The previous eight paragraphs were written for the sole purpose of
> > explaining why discrimination is important, I know it's not
> complete--I hope
> > you can fill in the rest.]
> >
> >
> > The questions that arose about physical stature, hua-tou,
> skandhas, and what
> > entails true zen practice were very important. And explanations
> are long.
> >
> > A book which desribes this aptly is "How to Measure and Deepen Your
> > Spiritual Realization: A Short Multi-disciplinary Course on
> Evaluating and
> > Elevating Your Meditation Progress and Spiritual Experiences."
> This book was
> > written by William Bodri (manager of www.meditationexpert.com) and
> Huai-Chin
> > Nan, a enlightened Esoteric master and Zen master, confirmed by
> many people
> > all over Asia.
> >
> > This book will take you through a journey of understanding the
> different
> > perspectives and cultivation schemes of different cultures,
> religions, and
> > philosophies, the skandha system and it's relevance to
> cultivation, true
> > Ch'an practice, the structure behind all sorts of Oriental
> practices from
> > physical pranayama to mental visualizations, chi cultivation
> (hows, whys,
> > don'ts), the metaphysics of cultivation and skillful means in
> order to help
> > all of the universe.
> >
> > I assure you, after reading this book you will have no questions
> other than
> > whether or not you can trust yourself to put forth the effort to
> go forward.
> >
> > But this book is darned expensive ($97) even if it has a lot of
> bonuses.
> > Even worse, it's an e-book so you have to print it. But I promise
> it's worth
> > the pain. Just read the raving excerpts for a taste.
> >
> > But this 700+ page but comes with a neat guarantee, which is the
> epitome of
> > why I think you should try it:
> >
> > "If you buy this material and after reading it don't find it
> useful or
> > instructive at all, not only will I return your money but I will
> send you
> > every other ebook on this site for FREE! That's right ... I will
> send you
> > every other book for free! Why such a guarantee? I want you to be
> totally
> > satisfied with our materials and in this way I'm guaranteeing
> you'll get
> > something that can benefit you." -- William Bodri (author)
> >
> > Good deal if one wants to get some other book on the site which
> altogether
> > are probably worth nearly a thousand dollars. Not to even go into
> the
> > intrinsic value.
> >
> > I challenge everyone here to see for yourself because, now,
> because no
> > excuses can possibly remain.
> >
> > http://meditationexpert.com/measuringmeditation.html
> >
> > But I didn't mean to silence your questions or discussion.
> >
> > Thank you for listening, anyway. Good luck. Bye.
> >
> > --Ahmed
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!
>
>
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