--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> DavidK,
> Thank you so much.  Interesting translation.
> The word "dependent" is somewhat heavy hearted though in this 
case.  ----Just an intuitive "sense" without logic or positioning.
> Maybe "linked" or "related" or "connected" may offend less ego.  In 
turn wake up more......... 
> 2,500 years later, people are better educated and more ego-driven.  
We parctitioners may begin to use less serious, orthodox words to get 
the same messages across.
> Just a notion flashing over, independent by itself.
> I am grateful to your sharing.  A deep bowl to you.
> Donald

You're welcome, Donald.  Actually, it's great that you are here so we 
can discuss these translation issues.  A big part of my practice has 
to do with just understanding what the Buddha meant by certain things 
he said. I think our search for the meanings of these words is good 
practice, and being able to talk to somebody who can speak a 
different language (that's you) is a blessing. :)

As for "dependent origination" I think the important part is that 
they arise together.  

That is: 

4 From:  Evelyn Ruut - view profile 
Date:  Thurs, May 26 2005 8:19 am  
Email:   "Evelyn Ruut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Groups:   talk.religion.buddhism, alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan, 
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"thefriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 


> Have you ever heard of the 12 links (of becoming)? 
> No 

> It describes the preconditions of samsara very well. 
> If you would like I can post them. 

> I would like that very much 
> thank you 

> -- 

Dear Friend, I am providing you two sources.... short and succinct, 
and the 
longer explanation as well.  You might want to print this out or save 
it to 
read at your leisure.   It is very basic buddhism 101 :-) 




The Twelve Links..... 

 Upon ignorance depends karma 
  Upon karma depends consciousness 
  Upon consciousness depends name and form 
  Upon name and form depends the six senses 
  Upon the six senses depends contact 
  Upon contact depends sensation 
  Upon sensation depends desire 
  Upon desire depends attachment 
  Upon attachment depends existence 
  Upon existence depends birth 
  Upon birth depends death, sorrow, lamentation 
      misery, grief and despair. 
  Thus does this entire aggreation of misery arise. 

(Samyutta Nikaya) 

Of course, what's important for us as Zen practitioners?  I for one 
enjoy learning about the Pali terminology, the 8 this, 7 that, 5 
this, the 6 that... I've been learning a lot of it lately.

But ultimately, with dependent origination, when one stops, they all 
stop.  So we don't really need to know all these things.  Pull it out 
at the root, right?  So if we work towards stopping ignorance then I 
think we're ok.


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