On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 05:52:32 -0800, anatmanwave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  

> ---Dear ZenBob,
> The absolute and the reletive are not "to a degree reletive"
> or "Absolutist". I'm reffering here to the Absolute and Reletive
> truth of the Universe.

    I realize that...but the relative and absolute truth of the universe
    are relative to the degree of our ability to perceive or understand
    the universe, because there is no absolute universe without us in it,
    nor could there be "us" without the universe.  The universe will go on
    existing, even without us from a relative perspective...

    At any relative moment...the exact here and now, we are still
    thinking, processing, judging, even when we seek to put those
    habits to rest.  I understand the objective of Zen, what I am speaking
   to is the nature of humans, the actual real state of relative existince  
in the
    here and now.  We may be at Zen attainment, we may fall out of it from
   one instant to the next.  What is the variable?  It is our thought and
   of course, the experience of the world around us.  We are choosing,
even when we claim to be not choosing.  To forget that or to believe  
is self-deception.  Sure, I know the "it is not the I that chooses"  
but peal away another layer of onionskin from our ego or "self  
identification" and
you or I will find another layer beneath that.

>  The Reletive truth is that things exist here and now in this exact
> moment, not the moment ahead or behind. Form springing up from the
> Universe. It's why the Zen student who stunned his toe exlaimed "I
> will not be fooled again"
> The Absolute truth is that all things, one thing; therefore no
> thing. The Universe springing from form.

    Sure, but where did you learn that?  Which world do you see without  
your eyes?
    What truths did you learn without teachers?  See, if you truly  
understand the
    nature of reality, you also realize that thought is both liberation and  
    The more one argues for a univberse that springs from form without  
identity the more you have refuted the argument that you are trying to put  
One cannot shout for silence and be in harmony.

> So when you responded by saying "nothing exist", you answered my
> post in the Absolute while I was reffering to the Reletive. Kinda
> like playing checkers and suddenly you're trying to play by the
> rules of chess. I can just as easily play chess, but we were playing
> checkers. you wanna stick to one conversation? :p Guy
     I appreciate what you are saying, but your writing was based on a  
a construct of "what if?"  This allowed me to respond as if the nature of  
the problem was
rooted in thought, not in actuality.  Fair game.  The process would have  
been very different
had you expressed the discussion from some specific experience that was  
actual...then we
are finitely limited to thoughts and decisions that could in reality have  
been taken then, or
things one could do now to make things "better."   But, if any of my  
students ever pose a
"thought experiment" what-if, I am certainly going to expose the fallacy  
of such arguemnts
with the Zen discipline that I used with my response.  If a student asked  
me, "Zenbob,
what if I were on a boat with only one life preserver, the boat was  
sinking, and there were
women and children on board, to whom should I throw the life preserver?"   
I would respond with,
"Toss them all life preservers!  What kind of cruel person imagines a boat  
with only one life preserver
when it has women and children as passengers?"  Or I could say, "You only  
need to remind them
to fly from the boat, as each of us is actually a beautiful bird."

That is Zen, folks.

>   In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Kirbo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:34:32 -0800, anatmanwave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> > ---If there is no train what just ran over my foot?
>> >
>>          Now there is a foot, too?
>> > I answer in the reletive, you come back in the absolute.
>>      Not absolutely...I realize that everything is to a degree
> relative,
>>      and I did not intend for the comment(s) to sound absolutist,
> but
>>      to offer some talking points on the underlying Buddhist
> approach
>>      of example via KOANS, since that was the essential topic.
>> >
>> > I fully understand the concept of mental constructs(?). We create
>> > our universe in every moment. But it is the action we take not
> our
>> > understanding of the situation that affects the world around us.
>>     Yes, exactly.  And I did underscore that principle, and am in
> agreement
>> with this view.
>> > Furthermore good effort does not always mean good results. best
>> > laid plans of mice and men........?
>>      Also, no disagreement, as in comment on "sh_t" happens.
> Again, at
>> every layer,
>>      as I suggested, we always have some choices to right thought
> and right
>> action...
>>      Buddhism and Zen are as close to absolutist on these
> principles.
>> > Just have to go with the flow,
>> > Guy
>>     That is the most important final perspective, of course..which
> relates
>> to my
>>   comment on ultimate harmony and finding one's own place and
> action in the
>> world...
>> if we keep bumping into things, or thinking that the glass is half
> empty,
>> and then
>> bump into things, that is when rational thinking suggests that we
> might
>> need to alter
>> our thoughts, our habits or our occupation.  There can be no doubt
> that
>> the odds of
>> unpleasant results if one is a police officer are likiely much
> higher than
>> if one happens
>> to be a photographer.  That does not preclude that a photographer
> is safe
>>  from harm,
>> accident or personal tragedy.  No one is free from the nature of
> the
>> world.  As you say,
>> given that some bad things will happen sometime, it is our
> resulting
>> thoughts and
>> actions in response to these bad things, that most form the next
> layer of
>> our lives.
>> I also try to go with the flow, but realize that at times I am
> responsible
>> for guiding or
>> channeling that flow as smoothly as possible.  And believe me, I
> have had
>> my share
>> of recent turbulence to understand the ultimate reality of
> humility about
>> these things!
>> Peace,
>> Zenbob
>> --
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