Bill,

Thanks for your response. First I wasn't intending to criticize your views personally, I was simply discussing the issues, so don't worry about that.

I don't make the distinction you do between thoughts and emotions. Both just are, and as such are part of reality, both can be seen as what they are, veils of illusion, or the world can be experienced through them, from inside them, in which case the nature of things is not clearly seen.

Let me clarify a little. True as you say that sad is sad, sad just is. That is not in question. The distinction I wanted to make is that one can simply experience the emotion of sadness as passing by, or one can become attached to it and have it color and distort one's whole world view. That is the distinction, but the distinction is the same for thoughts as well. One can simply experience a thought passing by in the mind, or one can become attached to that thought and keep adding thought after thought after thought to it so that one's mind is in the thoughts rather than in the world, and the world is seen only through the thoughts, not directly. Just as the emotion just is, so the original thought just was, and one can become attached to either the thought or the emotion, or one can just experience them and let them go. Same same.

Glad you agree with the transmission paragraph. I've had some really crazy arguments on that one, especially with those who have strong sect attachments.

Best,
Edgar



On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:49 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Edgar,

Thank you for your post.

I disagree with several points of the first paragraph of your recent post
attached below.

First of all I DO include intellect in the category of maya - illusion/not real. Intellect arises AFTER experience of reality, and creates dualism which then distorts and misrepresents all experiences. I DO NOT, however, believe emotions are illusory. They are real, they are reality. They do not distort experience. They are experience. Sad is sad. Happy is happy. This is not illusion. Sad just is. I do however agree with you (in your last two difficult but important sentences in that first paragraph) that both rationality (the product of intellect) and emotions need to be taken
'as is', and not given undo importance. They just are. They're no big
deal, and certainly not the be-all and end-all of reality.

Second of all I don't equate zen and satori. I define 'satori' as a 'small
or first breakthrough', a first glimpse of reality unfiltered through
intellect. It is short-lived and temporary. I believe there is more to zen
then just that. I do include satori as part of zen, but believe zen
practice starts before satori, continues on after satori as cultivation and
complete integration of buddha mind into your life (or you could say
becoming completely absorbed into buddha mind), and culminates in the
realization that zen practice, satori, buddha mind, and everything else associated with this is all maya - illusion. There is after all only THIS!

I do agree however with the second paragraph of your post which correctly
calls me on my use of the word 'transmission'. I am guilty of just
regurgitating popular, but inaccurate, terms used in describing zen. As
you've pointed out there is nothing transmitted. There is only a
realization or discovery. I agree with the all the rest of that paragraph.

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:25 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] zazen

Bill,

Good post with which I'm pretty much in agreement. Zen, or satori, is
certainly nothing above anyone's head as it is the natural state of all being. Satori is simply a matter of looking and seeing what is actually there right now unmediated by intellect or emotion - but that is with a caveat since one also must realize that intellect and emotions are part of that reality. The trick is to see them for what they are rather than seeing the world through them. In other words satori involves recognizing that illusion is part of reality, but seeing the illusion as illusion rather than
taking it for reality.

I do have a little quibble with the notion of 'transmission' however. In reality enlightenment is never transmitted from a teacher to a student. The realization of the student is always entirely his own, the teacher merely directs his attention to that realization which he already had but hadn't yet realized. The only really legitimate use of the term 'transmission' in Zen is the transmission of the worldly authority to head a sect or temple
from one head to the next, but that is politics not Zen.

Edgar

On Aug 12, 2008, at 11:01 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sean,

I think the fundamental meditation practices of both zen and Vispassana Buddhism are the same. There is a zen saying that when you're meditating and thoughts appear, you should treat them like you would treat a visitor knocking on your door while you are busy doing some important task. You should answer the door and acknowledge the visitor, tell him that you are busy right now but assure him that he is welcome to come back later - but above all, no matter how tempting, you DO NOT invite them in for tea and
conversation.

'Non-verbal' transmission has to do with the way zen is taught. It
especially concerns how the actual experience of Buddha Mind is passed
between teacher and student. The basis for it comes from the story of how Siddhartha Buddha passed on his enlightenment to one of his disciples during a teaching session at Vulture Peak. Instead of preaching to the multitudes
assembled, Siddhartha only held up a flower. Mahakashyapa smiled and
Siddhartha knew that he now understood. The point of the story and the term is that experience of Buddha Mind cannot be transmitted via words, spoken or written. The act of understanding words and the concepts they represent will not lead you to experiencing Buddha Mind. The actual experience is indescribable and any attempt to do so is not only ineffectual, but usually
misleading and can in fact be counterproductive.

That leads me into the last sentence of your post. Zen is not 'ABOVE your head', as some eclectic knowledge that you can't understand. Zen in fact is
very, very simple, so simple that it exists everywhere all the time
unnoticed. Zen has nothing to do with your head at all, as in your
intellect or any type of rational thinking. Zen is unfiltered,
unadulterated, direct and immediate experience of reality, which can only be done in the ABSENCE of your intellect which creates all dualism, including the concept of self. When you stop your intellectual (rational) processes you will lose your sense of self and all dualism. It is then and only then that you will be able to experience Buddha Mind, which has been there all along hidden behind all the rational static. Zazen is the only thing I know
that can help you do that, although there are other techniques such as
bowing or chanting that can reportedly bring you to the same place. IMNSHO, I think all religions were initially established to bring you to this very point. Unfortunately all religions I know of have lost sight of that and
instead have fallen back to stress rules and rituals. This is a good
example of the saying 'Can't see the forest for the trees.'

Enough for now. Thanks for your post. Please respond and let me know how
you see things. In the meantime, JUST SIT!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Sean Lukens
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] zazen
Hi Bill,

I agree with your description of the two practices. Yes, I do differentiate
non-grasping and repressing or avoidance, although when I find myself
avoiding something I will sometimes label it as such - "avoidance" - and
then let go of that internal process.

I am new to the conceptual practices of Zen, so ideas such as "non- verbal transmission" are still above my head. Maybe some things Zen will always be
"above my head." Thanks for your input.

Sean

----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 10:53:17 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: zazen
Sean, Sorry for the tardy reply, but I did not get your posting via
email as I normally do. I logged into the site today and saw your post.

I am not an expert in Vipassana, but I do live in Thailand where
Vipassana is widely practiced and have spent a short time at a
Vipassana training center and believe I do have some knowledge of it
and its teachings.

Your description of Vipassana meditation, '...sitting and not grasping
any thoughts, emotions, experience, etc,...', is also completely
applicable to zazen. I think it is important, however, to emphasis
that 'not grasping' does not mean 'rejecting' or 'avoiding'. 'Not
grasping' means 'not holding onto', or 'not forming attachments to'
thoughts, emotions, experience, etc...

From my experiences and observations the major differences between
Vispanna and zen are in the rites and rituals, rather than the
meditation. Also, as far as I can tell Vipassana does not recognize
mind-to-mind (non-verbal) transmission which goes to the core of zen
teaching.

Hope this helps. Let me know what you thnk.

...Bill!

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