I think this is what Donald (JMJM) was talking about when he 
referred to Chan losing something when it migrated to Japanese Zen. 
As well as Al in noting the "happy" people Zen with no worries, just 
sit in your bliss.  I appreciate your notion of Zen in and of 
itself. But what of the origins? Didn't the Buddha himself use Zen 
meditation to reach enlightenment? And was it the Zen itself, or the 
Buddhist tenets of the Middle Way and the Eightfold Path and such 
that paved the way for his Nirvana. I guess I am still confusing Zen 
Buddhism with just Zen alone as Bill has stated in the past. But it 
is my belief the origination of Zen was created by the Buddha 
himself, and I know Vietnamese Buddhists nuns today who practice 
Zen, but teach of karma, interdependence, cause and effect, and 
different realms of existance in which one can be reincarnated. It 
seems to me that Zen Buddhism was created by the Buddha and Zen has 
since been extracted out (for convenience, Al might say) as its 
migrated over the years.

Thanks Again,

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chris,
> There are numerous sources. E.g. during the Q&A after a lecture 
> Suzuki Roshi I asked him two questions:
> Q: Reincarnation is one of the central tenets of Traditional  
> Buddhism. Does Zen accept the notion of reincarnation?
> A: No.
> Q: During your lecture you stressed the importance of not using 
> rational mind. Do you use your rational intelligence to solve  
> everyday problems?
> A: Yes, I do.
> Also the works of Suzuki Daisetz (a different Suzuki) stress the  
> common sense non-supernatural nature of Zen which pays little  
> attention to anything supernatural.
> Also the whole samurai tradition, which is Zen based, is a very  
> rational direct and realistic approach to living in the face of  
> certain death with nothing beyond death.
> In other words Zen doesn't succumb to the notion that life has to 
> fair. The important point is how one deals with whatever one  
> encounters in life....
> I think that's enough for now....
> Edgar
> On Sep 4, 2008, at 12:58 PM, cid830 wrote:
> > Edgar,
> >
> > I understand where you are coming from with your definition of 
> > Like what Bill always says what Zen is to him. But he always
> > qualifies it as his opinion. You gave such a definite statement 
> > what Zen is, but what is your source? There are different 
schools of
> > thought and tradition.
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Donald,
> > >
> > > I don't think Zen pays much attention to karma. Zen certainly
> > doesn't
> > > accept reincarnation which is how karma is typically 
> > > according to traditional Buddhist thought. Zen is more about
> > dealing
> > > with the present however it may appear. Nor does Zen posit any
> > after
> > > death states such as nirvana or supernatural Buddha realms 
> > in
> > > early Chan there are passing references to such when discussing
> > > earlier texts). Zen is all about the here now, there is zero
> > > supernatural element to Zen.
> > >
> > > Zen does accept that right action facilitates enlightenment in
> > this
> > > lifetime though.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> >
> >
> >


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