I think this is what Donald (JMJM) was talking about when he referred to Chan losing something when it migrated to Japanese Zen. As well as Al in noting the "happy" people Zen with no worries, just sit in your bliss. I appreciate your notion of Zen in and of itself. But what of the origins? Didn't the Buddha himself use Zen meditation to reach enlightenment? And was it the Zen itself, or the Buddhist tenets of the Middle Way and the Eightfold Path and such that paved the way for his Nirvana. I guess I am still confusing Zen Buddhism with just Zen alone as Bill has stated in the past. But it is my belief the origination of Zen was created by the Buddha himself, and I know Vietnamese Buddhists nuns today who practice Zen, but teach of karma, interdependence, cause and effect, and different realms of existance in which one can be reincarnated. It seems to me that Zen Buddhism was created by the Buddha and Zen has since been extracted out (for convenience, Al might say) as its migrated over the years.
Thanks Again, Chris. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Chris, > > There are numerous sources. E.g. during the Q&A after a lecture by > Suzuki Roshi I asked him two questions: > > Q: Reincarnation is one of the central tenets of Traditional > Buddhism. Does Zen accept the notion of reincarnation? > A: No. > > Q: During your lecture you stressed the importance of not using the > rational mind. Do you use your rational intelligence to solve > everyday problems? > A: Yes, I do. > > Also the works of Suzuki Daisetz (a different Suzuki) stress the > common sense non-supernatural nature of Zen which pays little > attention to anything supernatural. > > Also the whole samurai tradition, which is Zen based, is a very > rational direct and realistic approach to living in the face of > certain death with nothing beyond death. > > In other words Zen doesn't succumb to the notion that life has to be > fair. The important point is how one deals with whatever one > encounters in life.... > > I think that's enough for now.... > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 4, 2008, at 12:58 PM, cid830 wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I understand where you are coming from with your definition of Zen. > > Like what Bill always says what Zen is to him. But he always > > qualifies it as his opinion. You gave such a definite statement on > > what Zen is, but what is your source? There are different schools of > > thought and tradition. > > > > Thank You, > > Chris > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Donald, > > > > > > I don't think Zen pays much attention to karma. Zen certainly > > doesn't > > > accept reincarnation which is how karma is typically transmitted > > > according to traditional Buddhist thought. Zen is more about > > dealing > > > with the present however it may appear. Nor does Zen posit any > > after > > > death states such as nirvana or supernatural Buddha realms (though > > in > > > early Chan there are passing references to such when discussing > > > earlier texts). Zen is all about the here now, there is zero > > > supernatural element to Zen. > > > > > > Zen does accept that right action facilitates enlightenment in > > this > > > lifetime though. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/