You're asking very difficult questions.

I'll pass for now on the one about 'What is the point of living a 
good life if it means nothing and has no value?'.  I'll only say now 
that although I don't worry about a point or a meaning to living, I 
wouldn't say life has no value.

I'd like to instead go back a few posts to your question about JUST 
THIS being 'Zombie Zen'.  I only answered that I thought that you 
were selling JUST THIS short, and that it had a lot more richness 
than you thought.  After mulling this over for a while I remembered 
the 10 Oxherding Pictures and Verses, and direct you to them.  You 
can Google 'zen oxherding' and you'll get a lot of links.  (Make sure 
you get the 10 version and not the 8 version, at least to synch up 
with this posting.)

In case you're not familar with these, they depict the journey to 
enlightenment in 10 stages or pictures, each with its own verse.  (I 
just want to make sure no one really thinks there are 10 actual 
stages to enlightenment - these are just someone's examples of 
milestones along the way.)

The first 6 depict the search for and the eventual realization of 
enlightenment, which is represented by the ox.

The 7th depicts a very advanced stage where enlightenment is 

The 8th stage depicts the 'void' stage that I think you are referring 
to and worrying about.  You don't want to get stuck there.  But take 
heart!  There are 2 more stages.

The 9th stage depicts the worldly phenomenen coming back into focus 
again, but this time a new focus through the prism of the 
enlighenment experience.

The 10th and final stage depcits an enlightened being fully 
integrated back into society - driking wine, eating fish, buying and 
selling in the market.  This is the end product of zen.

These stages are also represented in a familar saying and song lyrics:

First there is a mountain, (oxhearding 1-7)
Then there is no mountian, (oxherding 8-9)
Then there is.             (oxherding 10)

Usually on this forum I only post about no mountian, but when all is 
integrated fully, then there is.

So Al, you see there is something to look forward to after 
the 'void', if you need that assurance to go forward.


--- In, "Fitness63" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: cid830 >if you detach yourself from your Ego through these 
> 'mind-numbing' practices you will be a better person, more in-tune 
with the 
> world around you and enabling you to be an agent of change or 
> influence to others. >
> I would like that, but Bill, Mike, Edgar, etc., state it is just an 
> which is trancended when you reach the JUST THIS stage.
> I realize that I can be a bit combative about some issues, so I 
> for that. I think a while back I hit this wall we are discussing 
now and it 
> was never clarified for me and I gave up on zen and just chalked it 
up as 
> another bogus path that I had followed.
> I am enjoying this discussion because I realize that it is 
something that 
> has been bothering me for a long time. Where is the connection to 
> Universal, Dharma, ancestors, etc. What is the point of living a 
good life 
> if it means nothing and has no value? Why make sacrifices if we are 
> bits of meaningless nothing?


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