This is exactly the same as my perspective without the due 
respect...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Edgar,
> Thanks for the reply and insight. I'm just finding it really hard 
to intergrate my understanding and experience of Zen with the 
importance some people here are placing on chi. I can appreciate that 
chi exists and may even be the source of form and emptiness, but at 
the end of the day I just don't believe it is essential to know or 
experience chi in order to live a Zen life. With due respect, I think 
JMJM's Chan is just a highly developed technique which allows a 
person to feel chi and so feel somewhat spiritualised 
and 'connected'. I've felt something very similar in my Vipassana 
meditation (Vipassana uses a technique which generates a lot of chi 
and this is then used to 'scan' the body to feel the most minute, 
subtle sensations within and on the surface of the body), however it 
is still a technique. I'm not saying techniques are a bad thing - 
after all zazen meditation is a technique . What I am saying tho' is 
that ultimately ALL techniques are just
>  rafts which need to be discarded after reaching the other shore 
(the shore we're already on, of course). Zen is just simply living 
life fully in the moment and doesn't require anything extra in the 
way of 'energy currents', God, or listening to our 'inner-dolphin'. 
Mike.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> 
> From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 11 September, 2008 7:41:41
> Subject: Re: [Zen] JUDO
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> An excellent post from someone who obviously has direct experience 
of what he's talking about.
> 
> The huffing and puffing type of concentration of chi is primarily 
useful in demonstrations of force in set conditions such as breaking 
bricks. Bricks don't avoid punches or  strike back! In such cases one 
can concentrate on concentrating one's chi against the unchanging chi 
of the bricks and take one's time. However in interactive situations 
with a live opponent things are much different and concentrating on 
one's own chi in this way is not usually the best tactic. 
> 
> Against a live opponent the key is emptiness, or as you say mushin. 
If you are full of concentrating on your own chi your focus and your 
energy will be in that concentration of chi, not on the total 
interactive situation with the opponent. The emptier of such 
concentration one is the faster and more appropriately one can act. 
The idea is to be empty of self so that you are maximally aware and 
tuned to the flow of the total situation and are able to respond 
instantly and naturally to any change the opponent makes in the unity 
of the whole situation. This too is actually chi, but not a huff and 
puff concentration of chi in one's own hara, but a maximal awareness 
and response to the total chi of the entire situation that exists 
between you and your opponent. If you erect no chi barrier to your 
opponent you are able to sense instantly any change he makes to the 
chi flow you share with him and respond optimally - assuming you have 
the training to do so of
>  course.
> 
> This all goes to a very important point. What to do with 
realization, what to do with Zen? As Bill noted, he spends 99% of his 
life out of zazen. No matter how enlightened we exist in the world of 
maya where causality holds sway. With Zen we can realize that is 
illusion, but we still must exist within it. The big question is how 
to bring Zen into that world in our daily lives 24/7. 
> 
> Al points to the way here. The key is to be empty. That doesn't 
mean to be empty of chi, but to be empty of any hinderances to the 
flow of chi. When we are empty of such blockages we are continually 
being filled with the chi of the present here now which flows through 
us unobstructed, and out of this flow our own action originates 
naturally and spontaneously. Most people's action originates from 
their hinderances to the free flow of chi, those internal forms in 
which they try to trap chi, that is the internal forms in which most 
people try to structure and hold chi according to their particular 
desires, and thoughts, those forms which they call their self. But 
true Zen action arises directly from the free unhindered flow of the 
chi of the present moment through one's center. We see that 
brilliantly in the finest martial artists such as the aikido of 
Ueshiba Morihei, but it also works in every aspect of daily life if 
we just empty ourselves and tune to
>  the chi of the moment, and let that originate our actions without 
hinderance.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Al, 
> I'm a Kyokushin karate practioner and have represented Australia 
(actually I'm Welsh, but it's a long story..) at the international 
level. I have found Zen to be indispensable when fighting in 
competitions. If you start worrying negatively about the outcome of 
the fight, or regret not training hard enough then by the time you 
get on the mat you'll have expended too much nervous energy and/or 
react too slow to your opponents strikes and kicks. In training the 
same Zen principles applies - the kick or punch you throw NOW is the 
most important kick or punch you will ever throw in your life so put 
100% into it.
> 
>  The outcome of this training is the development of mushin (or 'no 
mind') where the fear of losing and injury doesn't exist. The 
Japanese call this spirit 'Budo'. Any focus on 'Chi' is minimal or 
non-existent although that's not to say it doesn't exist. It's just 
that focusing on the mind/ego thru zazen is much more  important and 
crucial to this development. I've often seen kung fu players 
performing intricate chi-type exercises before a competion and then 
come out and get their arses kicked by fighters who wouldn't know 
their chi if it jumped and bit them on their [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Fitness63 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 12:26:56
> Subject: [Zen] JUDO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I learned a lot from that old Judo instructor. He is a 
very nice guy and now he is in his 80s.
>  
> I think that he felt that Judo and Zen were intertwined and that 
zen helped him focus his CHI to be better at Judo.
>  
> I think that is why the samurai also were devoted to zen. It was 
not because they were atheists who believed in nothing. I would like 
to hear from those who have experience in Judo or other martial arts 
and whether or not you are aware of CHI and if it has any 
relationship to zazen in your experience.
>



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