Indeed, even the chakra connections, chi flow, etc. occur most fluidly
when we expect the least. Our head really blocks off a lot of
Edgar Owen wrote:
When you read the accounts of enlightenment in Zen stories, the
enlightenment or satori experience almost never occurs during zazen,
but almost always in daily life doing something ordinary, though often
in response to some event or words that suddenly enables them to see
beyond the ordinary to the ordinary.
Only difference between zazen and daily life is you are
(hopefully) dealing with fewer forms so might be easier to see the
formless beyond the forms, but the formless is always present whether
you are sitting in zazen or not. Just a matter of experiencing it.
On Sep 14, 2008, at 4:12 PM, mike brown wrote:
I agree with you in one sense - we're already 'there'. But sometimes
you have to go on a journey just to realise you never really had to go
in the first place. Same with zazen, Do you really believe all those
past Zen masters would have realised their 'already' enlightened state
without zazen? Mike.
Original Message ----
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]net>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com
Sent: Monday, 15 September, 2008 3:33:53
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
Mike and Bill and Al,
Zazen has nothing to do with Zen whatsoever. And I suspect
Bill at least would agree with me. There is no requirement to do zazen
or anything else whatever. Zazen may be an exercise that helps some
people, others it may just stand in the way. Same about anything else
one could possibly think of.
True zen is just finally admitting to yourself that you are
already enlightened and have always been, that is just finally
realizing what always existed that you just didn't notice before.
True Zen takes no 'work' of any kind whatsoever. You are
already there, you just need to realize it.
On Sep 14, 2008, at 12:33 PM, mike brown wrote:
I think the tricky thing about zen is that it often feels that 'getting
it' is always just around the corner or that if I just read the right
book/passage/ haiku/manga comic etc it'll all become clear to me.
Unfortunately, this just takes us further than ever away from any kind
of 'breakthru' into a zen life. As Bill says, we need to have faith
that this thing actually works, but this alone is not enough (as
opposed to most theistic belief systems). You have to do the hard work.
That means plonking your arse down on a mat and doing zazen. There is
no escape (for most of us) from this requirement. Just believing in zen
is useless. However, even if you just get a tiny sniff of a breakthru'
then a kind of 'knowing' (read - 'not knowing') occurs which surpasses
mere faith/belief. True, this can't be measured objectively, but so
what? You know the truth of the taste of a cup of tea, and even tho' it
can't be measured objectively, you just know - it doesn't matter what
anyone else thinks. Same with zen. You just live your life fully and
hopefully your actions/words will indicate the truth of zen and how
deep your zen is. Mike.
Original Message ----
From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2008 9:03:15
Subject: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
Everthing you know and feel is based on belief and faith. Even
science is based on the belief in cause and effect and faith in our
rational capabilities. The belief in enlightenment and the faith
that you can achieve it is what gets you started in zen. It's like
dangling a carrot in front of a horse, or more accurately a picture
of a carrot.
The concept of enlightenment is indeed an illusion as is testified to
over and over again in zen literature.
The only thing that is not an illusion is Only THIS (Buddha Nature),
but the only way you can really know that is to experience it.
And to do that all you need to do is sit (zazen) and allow your
concept of self to melt away.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com,
"Fitness63" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> From: cid830> We can only follow their teachings if we choose to
> them, regardless of whether or not they actually taught them at
> What we are talking about is the proverbial LEAP OF FAITH that is
> for any belief system, and thus zen, like any other religion or
> requires that the adherent BELIEVE in what may very well be total
> So is Maya the illusion, or is the actual illusion that
> so many strive to achieve and which cannot be objectively measured.
> all, when a Roshi says that he is enlightened, all we have is his
> it, and the word of his peers. Can you measure or otherwise prove
> enlightenment? Is enlightenment itself not an Illusion (Maya)?
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!