Edgar,

I think you're right that this seems like a typical experience to me, 
because the only experiences I've ever had with a group of people who 
have had satori are in a Japanese Zen Buddhist sangha setting, so 
oviously zazen played a big part.

Like you I beleive satori can be experienced in a non-zen, non-
Buddhist setting; so it would be reasonable to assume that would also 
be in the absence of zazen.  I do remember reading Thoreau where he 
sat comtemplating in front of his cabin all day.  That was something 
probably very close to zazen, but he certainly didn't call it zazen.

I wouldn't agree with your statement that 'treading your own path is 
much preferable'.  That of course depends on what you mean 
by 'preferable'.  If you mean most effective, then I'd think it would 
be hard to beat a tried and true method such as zazen.  If you mean 
something more innovative and personal, then you're of course right.

...Bill!  (Text YES!  HTML NO!)  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> That seems like the typical circumstance. I do agree that usually  
> satori experiences come unexpectedly after plenty of 'work' trying 
to  
> figure out the universe. My point is that work doesn't have to be  
> zazen, it can just as well be intellectual effort trying to figure  
> out the nature of reality which is a really big koan. Or it can be  
> directly interacting with reality until one suddenly gets it right.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that zazen is like a standard 
methodology  
> for the average person while really treading your own path is much  
> preferable - if you are up to it
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 15, 2008, at 10:06 PM, Bill Smart wrote:
> 
> > I agree with both of you, satori (first glimpse/initial 
breakthrough)
> > in most cases does not occur during zazen itself. But, as Mike has
> > observed, usually occurs in direct assocation with zazen. I think
> > this is because before satori while sitting zazen you are trying 
very
> > hard to breakthrough. Usually that's with a koan like Mu. When you
> > take a break and are working in the garden or the kitchen, or just
> > taking a walk your mind relaxes and then the breakthrough occurs.
> > That's just a guess.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Edgar,
> > > Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori
> > experiences occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they 
happen
> > so they are a kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people
> > these experiences are usually preceded by many years of zazen and
> > rarely occur independently from it (especially in relation to the
> > past Zen masters). In fact, I would add that to receive a satori 
like
> > experience without already practicing zazen could be detrimental 
to
> > one's spiritual growth because you would probably not have
> > the 'tools' to be able to integrate the experience into your daily
> > life. I don't completely advocate the 'aching legs' school of Zen
> > Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as Bill says, I don't see any 
better
> > way to recognising our inherent enlightenment. Mike.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 16 September, 2008 6:16:26
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > When you read the accounts of enlightenment in Zen stories, the
> > enlightenment or satori experience almost never occurs during 
zazen,
> > but almost always in daily life doing something ordinary, though
> > often in response to some event or words that suddenly enables 
them
> > to see beyond the ordinary to the ordinary.
> > >
> > > Only difference between zazen and daily life is you are 
(hopefully)
> > dealing with fewer forms so might be easier to see the formless
> > beyond the forms, but the formless is always present whether you 
are
> > sitting in zazen or not. Just a matter of experiencing it.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 14, 2008, at 4:12 PM, mike brown wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Edgar,
> > >
> > > I agree with you in one sense - we're already 'there'. But
> > sometimes you have to go on a journey just to realise you never
> > really had to go in the first place. Same with zazen, Do you 
really
> > believe all those past Zen masters would have realised
> > their 'already' enlightened state without zazen? Mike.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > > Sent: Monday, 15 September, 2008 3:33:53
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike and Bill and Al,
> > >
> > > Zazen has nothing to do with Zen whatsoever. And I suspect Bill 
at
> > least would agree with me. There is no requirement to do zazen or
> > anything else whatever. Zazen may be an exercise that helps some
> > people, others it may just stand in the way. Same about anything 
else
> > one could possibly think of.
> > >
> > > True zen is just finally admitting to yourself that you are 
already
> > enlightened and have always been, that is just finally realizing 
what
> > always existed that you just didn't notice before.
> > >
> > > True Zen takes no 'work' of any kind whatsoever. You are already
> > there, you just need to realize it.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 14, 2008, at 12:33 PM, mike brown wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Al,
> > > I think the tricky thing about zen is that it often feels
> > that 'getting it' is always just around the corner or that if I 
just
> > read the right book/passage/ haiku/manga comic etc it'll all 
become
> > clear to me. Unfortunately, this just takes us further than ever 
away
> > from any kind of 'breakthru' into a zen life. As Bill says, we 
need
> > to have faith that this thing actually works, but this alone is 
not
> > enough (as opposed to most theistic belief systems). You have to 
do
> > the hard work. That means plonking your arse down on a mat and 
doing
> > zazen. There is no escape (for most of us) from this requirement.
> > Just believing in zen is useless. However, even if you just get a
> > tiny sniff of a breakthru' then a kind of 'knowing' (read - 'not
> > knowing') occurs which surpasses mere faith/belief. True, this 
can't
> > be measured objectively, but so what? You know the truth of the 
taste
> > of a cup of tea, and even tho' it can't be measured objectively, 
you
> > just know - it doesn't
> > > matter what anyone else thinks. Same with zen. You just live 
your
> > life fully and hopefully your actions/words will indicate the 
truth
> > of zen and how deep your zen is. Mike.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2008 9:03:15
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
> > >
> > >
> > > Al,
> > >
> > > Everthing you know and feel is based on belief and faith. Even
> > > science is based on the belief in cause and effect and faith in 
our
> > > rational capabilities. The belief in enlightenment and the faith
> > > that you can achieve it is what gets you started in zen. It's 
like
> > > dangling a carrot in front of a horse, or more accurately a 
picture
> > > of a carrot.
> > >
> > > The concept of enlightenment is indeed an illusion as is 
testified
> > to
> > > over and over again in zen literature.
> > >
> > > The only thing that is not an illusion is Only THIS (Buddha
> > Nature),
> > > but the only way you can really know that is to experience it.
> > >
> > > And to do that all you need to do is sit (zazen) and allow your
> > > concept of self to melt away.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Fitness63" <fitness63@ ..>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: cid830> We can only follow their teachings if we choose 
to
> > > accept
> > > > them, regardless of whether or not they actually taught them 
at
> > > all. >
> > > >
> > > > What we are talking about is the proverbial LEAP OF FAITH 
that is
> > > required
> > > > for any belief system, and thus zen, like any other religion 
or
> > > philosophy
> > > > requires that the adherent BELIEVE in what may very well be 
total
> > > fiction.
> > > >
> > > > So is Maya the illusion, or is the actual illusion that
> > > enlightenment that
> > > > so many strive to achieve and which cannot be objectively
> > measured.
> > > After
> > > > all, when a Roshi says that he is enlightened, all we have is 
his
> > > word on
> > > > it, and the word of his peers. Can you measure or otherwise 
prove
> > > > enlightenment? Is enlightenment itself not an Illusion (Maya)?
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>



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