Chris,

Yes, you are referring to the 'sudden' versus the 'gradual' schools, which was a major source of argument and bickering among the Chinese Chan sects with each claiming their way was best.


Edgar



On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:39 PM, cid830 wrote:

Here! Here! Mike. I had the same reaction when I read his post. Many of
these people had worked a disciplined practice for years b4 reaching a
breakthrough. And some will never experience it at all (in this
lifetime). And I understand your perspective of how through these years
of dedication and training that when they experience this satori
breakthrough they will be able to live in that state. There are
different schools of thought on that though, as far as living in a
constant state of awareness, or experiencing mini-"breakthroughs" along
the way.

Thanks,
Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Edgar,
> Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori experiences
occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they happen so they are a
kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people these experiences
are usually preceded by many years of zazen and rarely occur
independently from it (especially in relation to the past Zen masters).
In fact, I would add that to receive a satori like experience without
already practicing zazen could be detrimental to one's spiritual growth because you would probably not have the 'tools' to be able to integrate
the experience into your daily life. I don't completely advocate
the 'aching legs' school of Zen Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as Bill
says, I don't see any better way to recognising our inherent
enlightenment. Mike.
>




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