Even within Japanese Zen Buddhism there are references to 
the 'sudden' and 'gradual' schools.  Soto emphasises shikantaza 
(clear mind) and Renzai empahsises koans.  (Both schools by the way 
use both techniques.)

My teacher, whose lineage was from both Soto and Renzai schools, told 
me that realizing kensho in Soto was like walking around in a gentle 
rain for days and days, and then suddenly realizing you were wet, 
soaked through and through.  Renzai kensho was like being 
unexpectedly pushed into a swimming pool.  You come up sputtering and 
flailing around wondering what just happened!

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Yes, you are referring to the 'sudden' versus the 'gradual' 
schools,  
> which was a major source of argument and bickering among the 
Chinese  
> Chan sects with each claiming their way was best.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:39 PM, cid830 wrote:
> 
> > Here! Here! Mike. I had the same reaction when I read his post.  
> > Many of
> > these people had worked a disciplined practice for years b4 
reaching a
> > breakthrough. And some will never experience it at all (in this
> > lifetime). And I understand your perspective of how through 
these  
> > years
> > of dedication and training that when they experience this satori
> > breakthrough they will be able to live in that state. There are
> > different schools of thought on that though, as far as living in a
> > constant state of awareness, or experiencing mini-
"breakthroughs"  
> > along
> > the way.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Edgar,
> > > Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori  
> > experiences
> > occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they happen so they 
are a
> > kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people these 
experiences
> > are usually preceded by many years of zazen and rarely occur
> > independently from it (especially in relation to the past Zen  
> > masters).
> > In fact, I would add that to receive a satori like experience 
without
> > already practicing zazen could be detrimental to one's spiritual  
> > growth
> > because you would probably not have the 'tools' to be able to  
> > integrate
> > the experience into your daily life. I don't completely advocate
> > the 'aching legs' school of Zen Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as 
Bill
> > says, I don't see any better way to recognising our inherent
> > enlightenment. Mike.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>



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