Thank you guys for trying.  Two more questions:

1.  Is satori enlightenment?
2.  If you agree that Satori is an irreversible transition.  Then it 
could be what we called, "witness the Original Self."  I don't know 
whether zen has similar term?

Thanks, JM

Bill Smart wrote:
>
> Edgar,
>
> You are right. I corrected this post in a subsequent post. I
> wrote 'satori' but meant 'kensho'.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
> Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I don't think satori is a term used just for a first awakening
> > implying there may be others. There is some disagreement, but in
> > almost all of the Zen enlightenment stories satori is described as
> if
> > it is a permanent and irreversible transition. Frankly I doubt
> that
> > is true in all cases. If so each would still be a satori.
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 18, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Bill Smart wrote:
> >
> > > JMJM,
> > >
> > > 'Satori' is a term used in Japanese Zen Buddhism to describe the
> > > first awakening. It is thought to come suddenly (even though there
> > > might have been a lot of preparation), and is thought to be
> temporary
> > > (does not last a long time - maybe just minutes with a strong
> memory
> > > or sense of what it was like lasting for days and months). There
> is
> > > thought to be a difference in 'satori' and 'enlightenment' only in
> > > degree of awareness and durability (how long it lasts) of the
> > > experience. Fundamentally awakening is awakening. There is no
> > > difference.
> > >
> > > In Japanese Zen Buddhism teachings, after satori, would come a
> > > regimine of either continued zazen (shikantaza) or koan study - or
> > > both. Both of these would be done under the tutelege of a zen
> roshi
> > > who would direct the students teaching during dokusans (private
> > > interviews). Dokusans are usually daily, but depending on the
> number
> > > of students could be more or less than that. During this period
> the
> > > roshi helps the student refine his/her awakening experience so
> that
> > > it can be gradually incorporated into the everyday activies of the
> > > student.
> > >
> > > This is the way I was taught in a Japanese Zen Buddhist zendo many
> > > years ago. All of this does not now represent my current
> > > understanding of 'enlightenment' (Just THIS!).
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> 覺妙精明
> > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, What I meant was, Edgar mentioned enlightenment comes after
> > > Satori.
> > > > Is there anything else we could to do to realize that? How about
> > > to be
> > > > Buddha? Do you talk about any of these? Do you talk about merit?
> > > Or
> > > > just slap on your face? Thanks, Donald ?
> > > >
> > > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > After satori some lose the ability to write complete
> sentences and
> > > > > respond to everything in loosely connected phrases...
> > > > >
> > > > > Just kidding! ;>)
> > > > >
> > > > > Siminotes, Welcome! I haven't seen you on the forum before. I
> hope
> > > > > you will continue to participate. I enjoy your posts. I
> especially
> > > > > enjoyed one a few posts ago in which you posted:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Self arises and dissapears with interaction."
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Self is a by product, not a permanent thing."
> > > > >
> > > > > I liked this description a lot....Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > "siminotes" <dscochrain@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > peace and serenity...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and nothing special.....living our lives and learning to be
> more
> > > > > > skillful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > no difference, satori no satori....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > just more aware...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > nothing special....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > > 覺妙精明
> > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What does your teaching say, if any, what to do after
> Satori?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, all teaching by itself is maya. But the
> teacher may
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > said something....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > JM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>  

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