JMJM,

1.  Yes, I believe the term 'satori' and the term 'enlightnement' 
mean the same thing.
2.  Satori could indeed be called as you suggest 'witness the 
Original Self'.  One of the 'breakthrough' koans used to 
induce 'kensho' (first experience of satori) is 'Show me your face 
before your mother was born.'  The certainly refers to your 'Original 
Self', or your Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thank you guys for trying.  Two more questions:
> 
> 1.  Is satori enlightenment?
> 2.  If you agree that Satori is an irreversible transition.  Then 
it 
> could be what we called, "witness the Original Self."  I don't know 
> whether zen has similar term?
> 
> Thanks, JM
> 
> Bill Smart wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> >
> > You are right. I corrected this post in a subsequent post. I
> > wrote 'satori' but meant 'kensho'.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > I don't think satori is a term used just for a first awakening
> > > implying there may be others. There is some disagreement, but in
> > > almost all of the Zen enlightenment stories satori is described 
as
> > if
> > > it is a permanent and irreversible transition. Frankly I doubt
> > that
> > > is true in all cases. If so each would still be a satori.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 18, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > >
> > > > JMJM,
> > > >
> > > > 'Satori' is a term used in Japanese Zen Buddhism to describe 
the
> > > > first awakening. It is thought to come suddenly (even though 
there
> > > > might have been a lot of preparation), and is thought to be
> > temporary
> > > > (does not last a long time - maybe just minutes with a strong
> > memory
> > > > or sense of what it was like lasting for days and months). 
There
> > is
> > > > thought to be a difference in 'satori' and 'enlightenment' 
only in
> > > > degree of awareness and durability (how long it lasts) of the
> > > > experience. Fundamentally awakening is awakening. There is no
> > > > difference.
> > > >
> > > > In Japanese Zen Buddhism teachings, after satori, would come a
> > > > regimine of either continued zazen (shikantaza) or koan 
study - or
> > > > both. Both of these would be done under the tutelege of a zen
> > roshi
> > > > who would direct the students teaching during dokusans 
(private
> > > > interviews). Dokusans are usually daily, but depending on the
> > number
> > > > of students could be more or less than that. During this 
period
> > the
> > > > roshi helps the student refine his/her awakening experience so
> > that
> > > > it can be gradually incorporated into the everyday activies 
of the
> > > > student.
> > > >
> > > > This is the way I was taught in a Japanese Zen Buddhist zendo 
many
> > > > years ago. All of this does not now represent my current
> > > > understanding of 'enlightenment' (Just THIS!).
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > 覺妙精明
> > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, What I meant was, Edgar mentioned enlightenment comes 
after
> > > > Satori.
> > > > > Is there anything else we could to do to realize that? How 
about
> > > > to be
> > > > > Buddha? Do you talk about any of these? Do you talk about 
merit?
> > > > Or
> > > > > just slap on your face? Thanks, Donald ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After satori some lose the ability to write complete
> > sentences and
> > > > > > respond to everything in loosely connected phrases...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just kidding! ;>)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Siminotes, Welcome! I haven't seen you on the forum 
before. I
> > hope
> > > > > > you will continue to participate. I enjoy your posts. I
> > especially
> > > > > > enjoyed one a few posts ago in which you posted:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Self arises and dissapears with interaction."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The Self is a by product, not a permanent thing."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I liked this description a lot....Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > > "siminotes" <dscochrain@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > peace and serenity...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > and nothing special.....living our lives and learning 
to be
> > more
> > > > > > > skillful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > no difference, satori no satori....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > just more aware...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > nothing special....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> > > > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž
> > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Guys,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What does your teaching say, if any, what to do after
> > Satori?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Of course, all teaching by itself is maya. But the
> > teacher may
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > said something....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > JM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>



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