Edgar, I haven't finished reading your paper on time. All last month I was in the USA visiting my ailing, elderly parents and just didn't have the time to do it justice. Maybe when I'm finished with it and am able to get back to you with comments I will see less disagreement between us on topics such as time and cause-and-effect, but I couldn't let this current post of yours go by without some observations. The bottom line of these observations is that the human concepts of time and cause-and-effect are maya - rational/intellectual constructs/overlays on reality - much like the concept of 'self'.
Now to your post: I'm not willing to concede that 'everything is quantum'. In fact if I had to choose a rational label, I would say that 'everything' (reality) is a single continuum not a collection of individual quanta. 'Probabilistic' is definitely a rationalistic overlay which is used to fill in the gap between the highly desired rational state of determinism (cause and effect) and the highly undesirable real state of chaos (randomness). Since reality is a continuum there are no individual 'events' that can be defined and separated by 'time' or connected by 'cause-and-effect'. To answer the question you pose in your last paragraph: >Are the laws of complex emergent events actually determining the fundamental tuning of the quantum >world which seem to produce them, or vice versa? Or is it all locked in an unchangeable time >symmetric network? The long answer is: There are no individual events to which laws could be assigned/discovered/applied. Also, there are no changes (not the same as 'unchangeable') because in order for 'change' to manifest, there needs to be multiple 'events' happening at different points in 'time', neither of which exist. The short answer is: Mu! (and this is not the 'mu' that is the 12 letter of the Greek alphabet.) But, as I stated in the beginning, it's all dependent on what's your definition, usage of and belief in time. If you concede time, you concede all else. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] More on Freedom and causality Andy, All randomness in nature is ultimately based in the fact that everything is quantum probabilistic at base. If the quantum world were not probabilistic there would be no true randomness, though there would continue to be many cases where the determinism was not computable. However even the quantum world is not truly random, but random only in ways which converge towards determinism at the classical level, e.g. half lives are predictable even though individual decay events are not. So the upshot is that individual quantum events ensure that events in the universe are not completely determined, but that that non- determinism often tends to converge on outcomes which may well appear deterministic at the classical level, perhaps bounded randomness, or quasi-determinism would be appropriate terminology. This all goes back to my point of which way determinism actually works, backward or forward, bottom up or top down. Do the convergences determine the constraints on the quantum world, or do the constraints on the quantum world determine the convergences at the classical level. Are the laws of complex emergent events actually determining the fundamental tuning of the quantum world which seem to produce them, or vice versa? Or is it all locked in an unchangeable time symmetric network? Edgar __________ NOD32 3478 (20080928) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/