Hi Margie,

I love your use of quotes to support your words and I think your choice is spot 
on! I can see how someone might read these quotes and assume that the author of 
them had little need for zazen or maybe never sat at all before 'reaching' 
enlightenment. However, I would bet that most of them studied under the feet of 
a teacher/guide before these words were wrote. One of the great insights from 
mythology is that sometimes the hero has to undertake a journey just to realise 
that no travelling was ever necessary. Same I would argue for zen and zazen. 
Mike.



----- Original Message ----
From: roloro1557 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008 12:15:44
Subject: [Zen] Re: What's after Satori


Hi Mike,

I'm glad we agree on some things and not others, if we agreed on
everything the discussion would be pretty boring :)

Please understand, I don't think getting engrossed in a football game
is what zen is all about, though I must tell you, certain music takes
me to a place that is very close to Satori.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that when one is doing it all the
time there's nothing to come back from. Let me try some quotes from
masters:

"Why do you not understand your nature when it is inherently there?
There is not much to zen, it just requires getting to the essential.
We do not teach you to annihilate random thoughts, suppress body and
mind, shut your eyes, and say this is zen. Zen is not like this."
Foyan

"To drink up the ocean and turn a mountain upside down is an ordinary
affair for a zennist. Zen seekers should sit on the site of universal
enlightenment right in the midst of all the thorny situations in life,
and recognize their original face while mixing with the ordinary world."
Huanglong

"Twenty-four hours of the day, be aware of where you are and what you do."
Yuanwu

"When you are free and independent, you are not bound by anything, so
you do not seek liberation. Consummating the process of zen, you
become unified. Then there are no mundane things outside of zen and
there is no zen outside of mundane things."
Yuanwu

"When material sense doesn't blind you all things are seen to be the
light of mind. You transcend with every step, on the path of the bird,
no tarrying anywhere. You respond to the world with clarity, open
awareness unrestrained. "
Hongzhi

The self that was revealed when the lightning struck is my true self.
All I can say is, for me there is no danger I will ever forget it or
lose track of it. Taming emotions, desires, and aversions is not the
point for me. The point is *having* them and not letting them have me,
the point is experiencing them fully and letting them go. A lot of
what I have read about zen talks about saving energy:

"Zen practice requires detachment from thought. This is the best way
to save energy. Just detach and understand that there is no objective
world. Then you will know how to practice zen."
Foyan

So I don't worry about taming emotions, desires, and aversions. When
something comes up I simply ask myself if I want to put energy into
it. A lot of the time the answer is no. Do I really want to waste my
anger on a situation I can't do anything about? Do I really want to
waste my desire on something I don't really need? This way my
emotions, desires, and aversions can't push me around. 

I am very much enjoying our discussion.
Margie (roloro1557)

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Margie,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I think you write very clearly. I agree with
some of your comments, but not others. For example, I agree that it is
possible to turn off the internal dialogue by becoming engrossed in an
activity but is this really all zen/zazen is about? Of course, a
person who is so engaged in an activity can 'lose themselves' for a
while, but when they 'come back' has that experience taught them
anything about their true Self or how to tame their
emotions/desires/ aversions? Most of these experiences (sports,
driving, listening to music, painting etc), whilst pleasureable and
beneficial, only scratch the surface of true equanimity. 
> 
> You mentioned that someone you know sat in Japan for 3 years but
became bitter because they didn't experience satori during this time.
I would say that the problem here lies with our being part of a
materialistic society that expects results comensurate with the time
put in. Three years is nothing! It takes more time than that to become
a qualified hairdresser! !  Sure, zazen is not the only way and niether
does it come with any guarantees, but IMHO for 99% of us it is the
necessary way to still our minds AND get deeper into the insights
found there. Mike.
> 


    


      

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