Thanks for your response.  I welcome the opportunity to discuss topics like

In your response below you talked about randomness as if I had disagreed
with that.  I do agree, in fact believe reality is entirely chaotic (the
original of chaos, not the chaos theory meaning).  Reality being entirely
chaotic there is the potential for patterns to emerge.  But also, reality
being entirely chaotic, these patterns arise and dissolve, appear and
disappear.  Human intellect seizes upon these patterns and discards the
non-patterned.  Human intellect also manufactures patterns where there in
reality are none.  In either case these patterns are no more significant (in
the ultimate sense) then seeing forms of elephants or a face in the shapes
of clouds.

I am very interested in finishing reading your paper on time so I can better
address my beliefs on the illusory nature of time with you.  My beliefs are
based on my direct experiences with reality in which there appears to be no
time, no form, no events, no patterns.  I'd like to someday be able to
describe that in a scholarly paper such as your paper on time.

In the meantime I'll direct my attention to doing something more significant
- like washing my bowls.


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:17 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] More on Freedom and causality


An interesting post to which the answer is well yes and no. 

First of all the quantum world is continuous in one sense, that the wave
functions which define everything at the micro level continually persist and
just change their forms they never actually 'collapse' or vanish but like
ripples and waves in an ocean of ripples and waves gradually lose their
measurability in new ripples and waves. So you are correct that in one sense
it is only at the classical level at which humans exists that discrete
events are picked out and isolated by the human brain from the flux of tao
or chi or OE or whatever one wants to call it.

This however doesn't negate the randomness at the micro-level. That in my
view is caused by the fact that dimensional spacetime is actually created by
quantum level processes. So what randomness means is that at the micro-level
the creation of points of spacetime are created with some randomness.

At an even deeper level we have little units of the building blocks of the
universe, things like units of charge and spin, which are continuously
reassociating into elementary particles. We may call those things particle
interactions, but really they are just reassociations of the elementary
units of reality.

These elementary units of reality are discrete though in their essence,
though continuous in time. Basically if things were not discrete
fundamentally then the universe would be continuous and that would mean that
infinities would have to exist. There are no physical infinities, infinities
are an abstract extrapolation invented by men.

Hope that makes sense, if not I'll try to explain in more detail.


On Oct 1, 2008, at 12:07 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


I haven't finished reading your paper on time. All last month I was in the
USA visiting my ailing, elderly parents and just didn't have the time to do
it justice. Maybe when I'm finished with it and am able to get back to you
with comments I will see less disagreement between us on topics such as time
and cause-and-effect, but I couldn't let this current post of yours go by
without some observations. The bottom line of these observations is that
the human concepts of time and cause-and-effect are maya -
rational/intellectual constructs/overlays on reality - much like the concept
of 'self'. 

Now to your post:

I'm not willing to concede that 'everything is quantum'. In fact if I had
to choose a rational label, I would say that 'everything' (reality) is a
single continuum not a collection of individual quanta. 

'Probabilistic' is definitely a rationalistic overlay which is used to fill
in the gap between the highly desired rational state of determinism (cause
and effect) and the highly undesirable real state of chaos (randomness).

Since reality is a continuum there are no individual 'events' that can be
defined and separated by 'time' or connected by 'cause-and-effect'.

To answer the question you pose in your last paragraph:

>Are the laws of complex emergent events actually determining the
fundamental tuning of the quantum >world which seem to produce them, or vice
versa? Or is it all locked in an unchangeable time >symmetric network?

The long answer is: There are no individual events to which laws could be
assigned/discovered/applied. Also, there are no changes (not the same as
'unchangeable') because in order for 'change' to manifest, there needs to be
multiple 'events' happening at different points in 'time', neither of which

The short answer is: Mu! (and this is not the 'mu' that is the 12 letter of
the Greek alphabet.)

But, as I stated in the beginning, it's all dependent on what's your
definition, usage of and belief in time. If you concede time, you concede
all else.


Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:12 PM
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED];Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] More on Freedom and causality


All randomness in nature is ultimately based in the fact that 
everything is quantum probabilistic at base. If the quantum world 
were not probabilistic there would be no true randomness, though 
there would continue to be many cases where the determinism was not

However even the quantum world is not truly random, but random only 
in ways which converge towards determinism at the classical level, 
e.g. half lives are predictable even though individual decay events 
are not.

So the upshot is that individual quantum events ensure that events in 
the universe are not completely determined, but that that non- 
determinism often tends to converge on outcomes which may well appear 
deterministic at the classical level, perhaps bounded randomness, or 
quasi-determinism would be appropriate terminology.

This all goes back to my point of which way determinism actually 
works, backward or forward, bottom up or top down. Do the 
convergences determine the constraints on the quantum world, or do 
the constraints on the quantum world determine the convergences at 
the classical level. Are the laws of complex emergent events actually 
determining the fundamental tuning of the quantum world which seem to 
produce them, or vice versa? Or is it all locked in an unchangeable 
time symmetric network?


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