--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Margie,
> So, you think 'The atom certainly existed long before humans came
along to
> "see" it.'  Did it?  That sounds like the old question of 'if a tree
> in the forest and no one is there, is there a sound?'.  I'd extend that
> question to 'if there is no one there, is there a forest?, is there
a tree?'

Hmmmm. Of course! No forest, no tree, no atom. Just this.

> You're absolutely right about the masters warning us about the use
of words.
> That's one of the severe drawbacks about an internet forum such as this
> where you're not only restricted to words, but worse yet only text.  One
> could argue that the birth of Zen Buddhism was when, according to
the myth,
> Gautama Buddha addressed his followers at Vulture Peak by just
raising up a
> flower.  No words were necessary, and in fact Buddha probably knew
his words
> would have actually been a hindrance.  Anyone who has gone through koan
> study, even partially, has experienced this firsthand.

Am I the only one who is struck funny that a writer (me) is having a
text-only discussion about the difficulties and uselessness of words!?

> I also believe, as you, that spiritual experiences are exclusively
> individual.  Religions are usually a collective attempt to codify
> else's experience in order to pass it along to others.  This is also
why I
> insist that the zen (lower case 'z') I talk about is not a religion.
> Buddhism is a religion, and Zen Buddhism is a subset of Buddhism. 
The zen I
> talk about is not a subset of Buddhism but a superset or an essence
> can be found in most all religions.
> Still hungry for dessert?  I'll get back into the kitchen and see
what I can
> whip up.  In the meantime you can prepare for that by taking the time to
> ...Bill!

Alright, I'll wash my bowl.

One other thing though. The little book I keep talking about, with the
quotes from the old Chinese masters - like you, it doesn't capitalize
the word zen (unless it's the first word of the sentence).
Just thought I'd tell you...

Margie (roloro1557)


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