JM,

Since you mention Hui Neng, I'll share my translation of his famous poem:


'There is no Bodhi tree,
There is no mirror bright.
There is only brightness,
And even the dust is dustless.'

In other words, there is no 'real' body, or any 'real' thing; there is no 'self' that has consciousness; there is only consciousness itself, and within consciousness everything is perfectly what it is, even illusion.


Edgar




On Oct 4, 2008, at 12:36 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

Hi Chris, The Sixth Patriarch's school is called the school of instant
enlightenment. It is for people like Edgar. The classmate of the Sixth
Patriarch, Shen-Xiu found the school of gradual enlightenment in the
north of China, where most of those like me belong. :-)

cid830 wrote:
>
> Thank you, JMJM.
>
> That is exactly what I was looking for. I see lots of postings about
> how the teachings are meaningless and just a distraction from your
> experiencing here and now, but I want people to understand that you
> have spent years of training to get to this point. It is not just as
> easy as "opening your eyes" to see true reality. You must follow a
> path, you must work to free yourself from your ego and the illusions
> it brings. I'm glad to see to give props to the Buddha and the
> teachers before you.
>
> Thanks again, and please clarify if anything I said here is wrong.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum% 40yahoogroups.com>,
> Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Well Chris, I am not sure I understand your question. The way our
> > Teacher teaches is nothing but meditation for 15 years. Then he
> > correlates Buddhist sutras and Tao Te Ching to our experience. I
> was
> > taught by one of his students. Also nothing but meditation for 5-6
> > years, then gradually relate my experience to the sutra. Does
> this
> > answer your question? Our Teacher is alive but no longer teaches
> now.
> > We just follow his way. We are all at-home practitioners without
> robe or
> > title or rules, except a few of us has a Dharma Name. We are no
> body,
> > no one, nothing.
> >
> > We have a big thick linage book, if that is what you are looking
> for,
> > then we are 48th Lingji(Rinzai in Japanese). In our school
> however,
> > this does not mean much. Historically speaking, Buddha sent
> his "without
> > word" teaching to china through BodhiDharma. He is recognized as
> the
> > First Patriarch of Chan. When it reached the Third Patriarch, we
> can
> > already tell the Taoiest influence in his Xin-Xin Ming(shin-shin-
> ming).
> > That's why Osho said, Chan stripped away all the excess baggage of
> both
> > Buddhism and Taoism and kept its essence.
> >
> > My Teacher defines Chan as the "universal life force and wisdom."
> It is
> > the foundation of all existence.
> >
> > Bill is right, everything else is just "lipstick". :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > cid830 wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, JMJM, but doesn't your school rely heavily on the Buddha's
> > > teachings to come to this realization? Under whose influence do
> you
> > > connect to the universal life force? Who designed the principals
> > > that you follow?
> > >
> > > Thank You,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙 精明
> > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Right on, Brother Bill. Anything written down, spoken about are
> > > just
> > > > forms to describe a direct "connection" to the universal life
> > > force and
> > > > wisdom.
> > > >
> > > > As Edgar stated numerous times, "nothing else matters..."....
> > > When we
> > > > let go of our mind, we let go of our frame of reference. No more
> > > > capable of judgment, comparison, categorization. No more
> > > suffering....
> > > >
> > > > To lock in this synchronization, a chi based practice helps..
> > > >
> > > > _/\_
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > BillSmart@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris,
> > > > >
> > > > > In a recent post you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >I do disagree with Bill's point that Zen has always
> > > > > >stood alone and that other beliefs have tried to
> > > > > >incorporate it, I believe it is the opposite, Zen
> > > > > >has been isolated from Zen Buddhism and incorporated
> > > > > >into other people's beliefs. Or something like that.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an important point to me so I'd like to try to clarify
> > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > If zen is indeed a 'direct experience of reality', then the
> > > capability for
> > > > > that experience that has existed 'forever', or at least as
> long
> > > as
> > > > > sentient
> > > > > (self-aware) beings have existed. This experience certainly
> pre-
> > > dates
> > > > > Siddhartha Gautama Buddha. That is why I say 'zen' pre-dates
> > > Buddhism,
> > > > > Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc...
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't believe that 'other beliefs' (religions) have tried to
> > > INCORPORATE
> > > > > it (zen)'; I believe a direct experience of reality (zen) is
> the
> > > BASIS for
> > > > > all these other beliefs, and that the differences we see today
> > > are due to
> > > > > different culturally-based terms used to describe this
> > > experience, and
> > > > > lots
> > > > > and lots of extraneous add-ons.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example when I read the Bible I interpret accounts of
> > > directly
> > > > > communicating with God (like Moses) or with the Archangel
> > > Gabriel (like
> > > > > Mohammed), or the experiences Jesus had after fasting for 40
> > > days in the
> > > > > wilderness as equivalent to the Japanese Zen Buddhist
> > > term 'satori'. I
> > > > > believe these are accounts of people directly experiencing
> > > reality,
> > > > > and then
> > > > > trying to describe it in the best way they could. When Jesus
> > > says, 'I am
> > > > > the Way, the Truth and the Light; and no one can come to the
> > > Father but by
> > > > > me', to me he is saying 'I am not 'me' any longer. I am no
> > > longer just a
> > > > > man, I'm the way, the truth, the light. I am no longer under
> the
> > > > > delusion I
> > > > > have a self that is different and separate from other beings
> and
> > > other
> > > > > things. I am no longer under the delusion of duality. 'I'
> cease
> > > to exist.
> > > > > There is Only THIS. 'I' am my experience, nothing more and
> > > nothing less.
> > > > > And having this experience (direct experience of reality -
> zen)
> > > as I have,
> > > > > is the only way for you to 'come to the Father' (come home,
> > > return to the
> > > > > origin, realize your Buddha Nature, become enlightened).
> > > > >
> > > > > This is what I believe because I do believe most of the major
> > > > > religions were
> > > > > started with good intent, and since I don't believe in actual
> > > deities
> > > > > I can
> > > > > only assume the impetus for all of these is from the same
> > > source:
> > > > > 'God', or
> > > > > a direct experience of reality - or what I choose to call zen.
> > > > >
> > > > > All of this is just a comforting thought for me. It's not
> really
> > > important
> > > > > in the long run. It's just a way I've found to rationalize
> other
> > > beliefs
> > > > > without completely negating them.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>



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