Good Post Margie!
 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "roloro1557" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's not very enlightened of me, I know, but I'm sorry I started 
this
> part of the thread. I don't want to make anyone feel bad for 
believing
> whatever they believe. I don't want to be misunderstood or made out 
a
> monster for believing what I believe. I mean no offense to anyone by
> anything written here.
> 
> How to explain. . . . .
> 
> When one has Satori (or realization or whatever you want to call it)
> one realizes that the true self was always there, one just couldn't
> "see" it. One also realizes that not everyone knows or sees their 
true
> self. This is not their "fault" - they can't help it. The best 
example
> I can think of is diapers and potty training children. We do not 
hold
> babies accountable for messing their pants, we put a diaper on them 
to
> limit the mess and we clean up when they do. When we begin potty
> training we do not expect them to instantly know how to control 
their
> bowels and bladder. We sit them on the potty and wait for them to
> figure it out and keep cleaning them up. Eventually they understand
> and we are all free of messy diapers and underwear.
> 
> This is how I look at accountability issues... Most people are not
> purposely vicious and don't set out purposely to cause harm or 
damage.
> They aren't accountable. And everyone- no matter how enlightened,
> noble, intelligent, etc- makes mistakes. People should admit their
> mistakes and do their best to make amends and rectify them. 
> 
> HOWEVER, there are people who do know what they are doing is harmful
> or "wrong" and they choose to do it anyway. These people are 
dangerous
> and should be HUMANELY imprisoned so they cannot hurt others. 
> 
> When we give up our attachment to our false self or ego self, 
we "grow
> a thicker skin", we stop taking things personally. Outside of rape,
> other people's sexuality cannot hurt me. Can people do
> self-destructive things with sex? Absolutely. In my view these 
people
> need compassion and support, not a lecture on morals. Most of what
> other people do cannot hurt me unless *I* let it.
> 
> It really isn't that I think "anything goes". Look around you.
> Anything is already going. All the morals in the world haven't 
stopped
> it and probably never will. It's a waste of time and energy.
> I rather use my energy in caring for and supporting those who are
> wounded and hurting by what some people call a lack of morality.
> 
> I also think ignorance can be a terribly destructive thing - but it 
is
> a curable condition. If people are have access to all the relevant
> information, they usually make good choices. 
> 
> I don't know if I've made any sense in this poet or not...
> 
> Margie (roloro1557)
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" <actionheroes@> wrote:
> >
> > In Zen (and/or Chan), what is Accountability? One issue that has 
come 
> > up many times over the years is that some folks think Zen is 
just "Do 
> > whatever you want, whenever you want, to or with whomever you 
want." 
> > This philosophy goes to everything, including sex, relationships, 
> > money, etc. 
> > 
> > So is that what Zen is? If you ever ask, "Does Zen have a 
position 
> > against X, Y, or Z?" The answer is usually not very clear. Is 
there 
> > anything in Zen against betrayal, theft, adultery, etc?? 
> > 
> > Even if there is, what is the accountability of any person for 
their 
> > sins or misdeeds or karma???
> >
>



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