No need to wait to resume your practice. What better roshis could you have
than your in-laws? What better koans could you work on than your Xbox?
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 11:37 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: 2009 Best Way Pledge
That is why you have my vote for Guru of the Zen Forum.
When I said I did not want to go around and around with you defining
terminologies, I really meant that I did not want you to run circles
around me with your superior knowledge of the subjects at hand. I
have, once again, exposed my ignorance. I do appreciate this history
lesson on Zen, I did know all of this at one time, but I tend to
forget things quite easily (if you read my post on Satori experience
you might understand why). The lessons that I do remember may be
subject to the way I want to remember them! Just like the RELIGIONS
you mention. I understand your belief that these figures are myths.
Repetitions of teachings of enlightened beings that may or may not be
true, flavored by cultural (and political?) viewpoints along the way.
I see more clearly where you are coming from, and like how you
interpret what are said to be Jesus' sayings. You have my respect and
I always welcome your Chimes!
I have begun reading again, and soon hope to resume my practice, just
not today. Today my in-laws are in town, and tonight some good fights
are on, and Call of Duty is waiting for me on the Xbox360. But soon,
Thanks again for your time.
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chris, My comments to your recent post are embedded below:
> >I was hoping you would chime in on that point.
> CHIME! CHIME! CHIME!
> >I know that
> >often times it's a matter of symmantics or labels that we have to
> >use to describe what you call JUST THIS!. I really don't want to
> >around and around defining terminologies.
> Agreed! Semantics are set aside in this post. You can say po-TAY-
> I'll say po-TAH-toe.
> >Siddharta Guatama is the
> >one who found the path to enlightenment (so I have heard).
> Caveat: I believe the story of Siddhartha Gautama is a myth, like
> of Jesus is a myth. A myth doesn't mean the story is not 'true'.
> very often conveys much deeper truths than a 'real' story. I
> both cases the myth is based on actual events, but these events may
> all happened to one person or in even the same era, and
> probably been made after-the-fact to emphasis or clarify (and maybe
> muddle-up) some points.
> The above caveat notwithstanding, I do not believe Siddhartha
> the FIRST 'one who found the path to enlightenment', and certainly
> ONLY one. He happens to be the one on which the Buddhist Religion
> consequently Zen Buddhism was founded.
> >Buddhism, in my understanding, attempts to re-create that path
> >through his teachings, while losing alot of the unneccessary dogma
> >of traditional Buddhism.
> All Buddhism teaches a means to attain a direct perception of
> Buddhism has two main divisions: Hinayana (which addresses the
> of suffering) and Mahayana (the path to emptiness). Zen is either
> classified as a sub-set of Mahayana or sometimes a third division
> The VAST MAJORITY of the followers of Buddhism practice Hinayana, a
> percentage Mahayana, and a VERY, VERY small percentage practice Zen.
> I agree with you that Zen Buddhism does have less dogma and depends
> rituals as does the other branches. I'd be careful, however, about
> around the term 'unnecessary', since in actuality all of Buddhism is
> unnecessary to having a direct perception of reality.
> >Was not that 'transmission' at Vulture Peak
> >preceded by years of strict adherence to the Buddha's teaching of
> >the path that he followed, as well as the knowledge he had learned
> >from his enlightenment? That student had trained to be ready for
> >that moment.
> Siddhartha Gautama's wordless sermon at Vulture Peak is usually
> the beginning of what we now call Zen Buddhism. This was proceeded
> his own winding search for an answer to human suffering, his
> enlightenment, and what are now called his Hinayana teachings and
> Mahayana teachings (and if you want to separate it, finally his Zen
> teachings - Vulture Peak).
> >You practice zazen, a meditational technique to train yourself
> >to dissolve the illusion of self. This, IMHO, is the one of the
> <Buddha's teachings.
> I do practice zazen. I do think it was the primary technique
> the koan Mu) which enabled me to have a my first direct experience
> reality. Shikantaza (clear mind) zazen both helped me prepare
> the experience, and afterwards helped me incorporate the experience
> daily life. When I sit zazen now, I sit shikantaza.
> >Which other "religions" recommend this practice?
> Many other religions teach meditation techniques. Christianity
> Christian teachings even instruct the practitioner to meditate or
> contemplate on unknowable qualities such as God's love or
emptiness, or the
> infinite nuances of a particular Bible verse.
> <Do you follow (or did you follow) any other teachings to get to
> I was taught and practiced Christianity throughout my childhood and
> young adulthood. At one time when I was about 14 or 15 and
> Christian Summer Camp I had a very moving religious experience and
> started thinking about going into the clergy 'when I grew up'. I
> Zen Buddhism through reading (Alan Watts) when I was about 16 and
> an introductory session at the Zen Center of Los Angeles in 1964
when I was
> 18. After that I increased my activity at the center, my personal
> involvement with the two roshis there, and my real zen practice was
> Other Zen Buddhist practices I have employed are fasting, chanting
> deprivation. All of these are found in other religions. Other
> also employ such practices as dancing, singing (like chanting),
> self-flagellation and drugs.
> >You even acknowlege the Buddha Nature, but you have re-
> >defined it as JUST THIS?
> I renamed Buddha Nature for two reasons. One - I now know this
> not EXCLUSIVELY connected with Buddhism so I wanted to use a term
> not have a Buddhist context. Two - it is my experience so I'll
call it what
> I want. Tozan called it 'three pounds of flax'. Gutei held up one
> Ta Kuang did a dance. I call it 'Just THIS!' Po-TAY-toe, Po-TAH-
> over it!
> >I agree with you that zen has always been there. Many of these
> >other religions you mentioned were created to explain JUST THIS in
> >their own way. But most of them that I have any knowledge of
> >that there is a KEEPER of JUST THIS, and you must follow their
> >teachings to experience it in the AFTER-LIFE. They say to "follow
> >finger to get to the moon" so-to-speak. I think you may be reading
> >ALOT into the meaning of Jesus' sayings.
> I do read a lot into the sayings of Jesus. His sayings meant a lot
> before I found zen, but they mean a lot more to me now. I think my
> experiences have enabled me to better understand his sayings, or at
> better relate to them. It is the RELIGIONS that have sprung up
> enlightened beings that have made all these caveats - like AFTER-
> Jesus never said that you had to die to go to heaven. He in fact
> referring to himself (his Buddha Nature) that 'The Kingdom of
Heaven is at
> hand!' It's here! Right now! I am an embodiment of it. You are
> 'Seek and you shall find!' 'Knock and it shall be opened unto
> 'Split wood, I am there. Break rock, I am there also.' I really
> how much 'reading into' you have to do with these sayings.
> >Zen Buddhism does not
> >worship the Buddha, we only show respect for the man for showing
> >the path. Not the only path, but a significant one nonetheless. It
> >is my contention that you have followed a Zen Buddhist Path to get
> >to this point, you do often mention the Buddha's teachings.
> Again, it is the RELIGIONS that teach worship of the originator of
> beliefs. Christianity certainly does in the case of Jesus, but
> Islam don't teach that their prophets, including Mohammed, are
> also, MOST BUDDHISTS in the world worship Buddha as a God. All
> here in Thailand do.
> >I had been trying to 'strip' my Zen Buddhist beliefs from zen
> >for the sake of discussion on this forum. I see that zen means
> >different things to different people. Honestly, you have
> >me temendously on here and have caused me to re-think my Buddhism
> >interlaced with my Zen. But, when Mike called me on it, I had to
> >take a second look at what got me to this point.
> There is really no need for you to strip out the Buddhism from your
> practice, and as you say there are a lot of good reasons to keep
> whatever you are most comfortable with. Just practice!
> Most of the above responses to your post are written in just plain
> what I call 'words about zen'. I will respond to your post below
> I call 'zen words'.
> >Do you practice Zen? Or is it just a concept? I would really
> >like to know what makes up your practice today.
> When hungry I eat. When tired I sleep. CHIME! CHIME! CHIME!
> Just THIS!
> >With Deepest Regards,
> As always.Bill!
> P.S. Margie, Did you enjoy the dessert?
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