Anthony,  My responses are embedded below:

>That is what I expected to be your answer: there is no suffering
>to save. How about starving African people, those who go through
>tortures, political oppression, rape victims, bereaved family,
>etc etc? Do we just stand by to laugh?

I'm not exactly sure what your question is:

If your question is 'How should I, Anthony, help alleviate starvation, 
political oppression, and violent crimes among African people?', I would answer 
'I don't really know'.  That's a political problem and probably requires a 
political solution.  But I would advise you to start by alleviating your own 
suffering by getting rid of your attachments.  Then you could join (or start) a 
political group and work and attempt to enable the changes in Africa that you 
want to see.
  
What are you going to do?
 
>I expect your answer to be: teach those people to get rid of attachment
>to the suffering. Right?

If your question is 'How should I, Anthony, help African people alleviate their 
suffering which is due to attachments?', I would answer 'I don't really know'.  
That's a personal problem and probably requires a personal solution.  But I 
would advise you to start by alleviating your own suffering by getting rid of 
your attachments.  Then you could move to Africa and begin helping one person 
at a time.

What are you going to do?
 
...Bill!

--- On Tue, 14/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 7:14 PM
Anthony,

'Digression' is my middle name!

See my responses embedded below:

>A hammer hitting a toe occurs every day and everywhere in the world,
>resulting in a lot suffering. How does zen address this problem?

Pain is not what Buddhism means when it talks about suffering. Pain is pain. 
OUCH! Suffering, in the Buddhist sense, is the result of attachment - wanting 
things. It is this suffering that Buddhism seeks to end. Not pain. OUCH! (Of 
course if you were not ATTACHED (physically attached) to your toe, then hitting 
it wouldn't hurt, would it? But, if you were not attached to your toe, would it 
still be YOUR toe? Maybe you've come up with a new koan. Cool!)

>Many zen masters still remember the origin of zen, which is
>mahayana Buddhism has a root vow of Bodhisatva to save all
>sentient beings in the world. I have trouble seeing that reconciled
>with the non duality.

If you see that all attachments and therefore suffering is illusory, then you 
have 'saved yourself' (Hinayana), and in doing so you have destroyed the 
dualism that separates 'you' from 'others' and have therefore already saved 
'all sentient beings' (Mahayana), and doing this enables you to realize there 
were no sentient beings and no saving action that had to be done in the first 
place (Zen), and that there only ever was, is and will be Just THIS! (zen) 

>If causality is illusory, are there rules that govern human behavior,
>such as karma, in place of God, so that man have to think twice, before
>they commit evil deeds?

My experience and opinion is that causality is illusory; so there are no rules 
that govern human behavior, no karma, and no God. If you think once, much less 
twice, you are already lost!

...Bill!


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