We've had what you could call modern morality for at least 2,000 years.  We've 
surely had some sense of morality much, much longer than that.  What good has 
that done for us?  How long are you willing to wait?

How long are you willing to ask the African people to wait you talked about in 
your previous email?  What are you doing about that situation - NOW, not in the 


From: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony 
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

Hi Mike,
I am waiting to be convinced that without morality we can still live in peace.

--- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 11:38 AM
Hi Anthony,

You argue so strongly about morality, and the perceived lack of it in Zen,
so can you tell us - what exactly are you doing about the issues you mentioned 

----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 8:24:30
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
Dear Digression,
That is what I expected to be your answer: there is no suffering to save. How 
about starving African people, those who go through tortures, political 
oppression, rape victims, bereaved family, etc etc? Do we just stand by to 
I expect your answer to be: teach those people to get rid of attachment to the 
suffering. Right?

--- On Tue, 14/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org> wrote:
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 7:14 PM

'Digression' is my middle name!

See my responses embedded below:

>A hammer hitting a toe occurs every day and everywhere in the world,
>resulting in a lot suffering. How does zen address this problem?

Pain is not what Buddhism means when it talks about suffering. Pain is pain. 
OUCH! Suffering, in the Buddhist sense, is the result of attachment - wanting 
things. It is this suffering that Buddhism seeks to end. Not pain. OUCH! (Of 
course if you were not ATTACHED (physically attached) to your toe, then hitting 
it wouldn't hurt, would it? But, if you were not attached to your toe, would it 
still be YOUR toe? Maybe you've come up with a new koan. Cool!)

>Many zen masters still remember the origin of zen, which is
>mahayana Buddhism has a root vow of Bodhisatva to save all
>sentient beings in the world. I have trouble seeing that reconciled
>with the non duality.

If you see that all attachments and therefore suffering is illusory, then you 
have 'saved yourself' (Hinayana), and in doing so you have destroyed the 
dualism that separates 'you' from 'others' and have therefore already saved 
'all sentient beings' (Mahayana), and doing this enables you to realize there 
were no sentient beings and no saving action that had to be done in the first 
place (Zen), and that there only ever was, is and will be Just THIS! (zen) 

>If causality is illusory, are there rules that govern human behavior,
>such as karma, in place of God, so that man have to think twice, before
>they commit evil deeds?

My experience and opinion is that causality is illusory; so there are no rules 
that govern human behavior, no karma, and no God. If you think once, much less 
twice, you are already lost!


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