I don't think our causality discussion is OT at all. The true nature of things is exactly what Zen is about. Until we understand that there is no Zen.

Zen is not about avoiding reality by sitting forever in zazen. Zen is about living day to day in the real world of things seen in their true nature, of illusion seen as illusion, which is reality.


On Oct 15, 2008, at 6:50 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Mark, Mike and Mayka,

I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that
necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization.

I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do with zen or Zen Buddhism as far as I'm concerned. It is exactly as you've characterized it - head-candy. I call it verbal Sudoku. The Zen Forum is not an appropriate place for us to have this discussion, and at least on my
part I'm willing to shut it down.

The thread was a divergence from a legitimate discussion on a topic that is appropriate to zen and Buddhism, the concept of karma. Causality is a kind
of value-free version of karma.

Thanks for reminding me of the purpose of the forum and the boundaries that
should be respected.


P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I
get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the
postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has
been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else
offer any possible explanations or suggestions?

From: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Perew
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness.
Part 4, Sense Consciousness

Mike -

A toast to the things I cannot change!

On 10/15/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Mayka,

>My knowledge and insight about
>consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to
>intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of
>the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather
>keep quiet till real insight cames out.

Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical
postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an "intellectual exercise" ala
JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight
Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I
don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an
alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the


----- Original Message ----
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58
Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part
4, Sense Consciousness
Hi Mike;

Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or
previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then
in order to understand them one needs first to understand all
previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at
the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of
writing, isn't it?.

However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons;
First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers.
Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long
retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much
confidence yet on the subject.

The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss
about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take
part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion
within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and

Thanks anyway for your interest.

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], mike brown <uerusuboyo@ ...> wrote:
> Hi Mayka,
> Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you?
> Mike.
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mayka <flordeloto@ ...>
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22
> Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness.
Part 4, Sense Consciousness
> Part 4, Sense Consciousness
> Twenty-Eight
> Based on mind consciousness.
> The five sense consciousness
> separately or together with mind consciousness,
> manifest like waves on water.
> Twenty-Nine
> The field of perception is things in themselves.
> Their mode of perception is direct.
> Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral.
> They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the
> brain.
> Thirty
> They arise with the
> universal, particular and wholesome,
> the basic and secondary unwholesome,
> and the indeterminate mental formations.

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