If that is not simple enough. Here we go:
 
I cannot do anything on my own. I need your help.
 
Regards
Anthony

--- On Thu, 16/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 7:27 AM








Hi Anthony,

Ok, I'm waiting. When are you going to put it in simple bloody English?

Mike



----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 7:59:00
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality








Mike,
 
To put it in simple bloody English, I cannot convince myself that a world 
without morality is still as peaceful as we have law and order. 
 
You can say a certain kind of morality is wrong. OK, what is your right 
morality? Make revolution and overthrow the old one and establish a new 
morality. During your revolution, there is turmoil. But after that, there will 
be peace for a period of time. That is history. You cannot have peace from the 
big bang to doomsday.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Thu, 16/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:

From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 6:37 AM






Hi Anthony.

What can't you do by yourself?

Mike.



----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:15:43
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality








Hi Mike,
 
I am not yet convinced, and I don't think I can do it myself. So I need help. 
You cannot do everything on your own. Things second hand may be useful.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:

From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 6:07 PM






Hi Anthony,

I'm afraid you're going to have to convince yourself. Morality gleaned 
vicariously or from second-hand sources has no depth, no lasting power, is 
fickle and therefore not valid. As Buddha said, be your own guiding lamp.

Mike. 



----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 18:55:10
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality








Hi Mike,
 
I am waiting to be convinced that without morality we can still live in peace.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:

From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 11:38 AM






Hi Anthony,

You argue so strongly about morality, and the perceived lack of it in Zen,

so can you tell us - what exactly are you doing about the issues you mentioned 
below?

Mike.


----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 8:24:30
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality








Dear Digression,
 
That is what I expected to be your answer: there is no suffering to save. How 
about starving African people, those who go through tortures, political 
oppression, rape victims, bereaved family, etc etc? Do we just stand by to 
laugh?
 
I expect your answer to be: teach those people to get rid of attachment to the 
suffering. Right?
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 14/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org> wrote:

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 7:14 PM




Anthony,

'Digression' is my middle name!

See my responses embedded below:

>A hammer hitting a toe occurs every day and everywhere in the world,
>resulting in a lot suffering. How does zen address this problem?

Pain is not what Buddhism means when it talks about suffering. Pain is pain.. 
OUCH! Suffering, in the Buddhist sense, is the result of attachment - wanting 
things. It is this suffering that Buddhism seeks to end. Not pain. OUCH! (Of 
course if you were not ATTACHED (physically attached) to your toe, then hitting 
it wouldn't hurt, would it? But, if you were not attached to your toe, would it 
still be YOUR toe? Maybe you've come up with a new koan. Cool!)

>Many zen masters still remember the origin of zen, which is
>mahayana Buddhism has a root vow of Bodhisatva to save all
>sentient beings in the world. I have trouble seeing that reconciled
>with the non duality.

If you see that all attachments and therefore suffering is illusory, then you 
have 'saved yourself' (Hinayana), and in doing so you have destroyed the 
dualism that separates 'you' from 'others' and have therefore already saved 
'all sentient beings' (Mahayana), and doing this enables you to realize there 
were no sentient beings and no saving action that had to be done in the first 
place (Zen), and that there only ever was, is and will be Just THIS! (zen) 

>If causality is illusory, are there rules that govern human behavior,
>such as karma, in place of God, so that man have to think twice, before
>they commit evil deeds?

My experience and opinion is that causality is illusory; so there are no rules 
that govern human behavior, no karma, and no God. If you think once, much less 
twice, you are already lost!

....Bill!





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