Edgar,

Except it's only:
Hungry > Eat
Tired > Sleep

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:27 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

Bill,

Great examples of straightforward causal connections.

Hungry > Eat > no longer hungry
Tired > sleep > no longer tired

:-)
Edgar



On Oct 15, 2008, at 9:54 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


Edgar,

It's easy to learn. When hungry, eat; when tired, sleep...Bill!

From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:12 PM
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

Bill,

All sounds great to me, but how do you accomplish all this without following
the laws of causality?!

Obviously you couldn't. Perhaps the problem is you are defining causality in
some very abstruse way? Could you give me a concise definition of causality
that is illusory and doesn't apply to the construction of a reservoir
system? Or do you just wave your zen wand and these things appear magically?
If so please teach me how to do it. :-)

Best,
Edgar

On Oct 15, 2008, at 6:50 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Anthony,

Thailand is in a real political mess right now. There are three centers of
power: the king, the military and the government. The government is in
disarray and the military has taken advantage of that in the past. Things
could get ugly very quickly, especially if the king were to die. As far as I
can tell he's the only uncorrupt force holding the country together.

I do have compassion towards the suffering I see in Thailand. What do I do
about it? I have compassion. When I draw water from my well (the only one on
the mountain) I share it with my neighbors. I've built a 20,000 liter
reservoir at the top of my mountain property, built a filtration system and
installed gravity-fed water pipes to all of my neighbors' houses (14 bamboo
'shacks'). I charge them only a nominal fee to discourage them from wasting
water. Before I did this they had no running water to their houses and drew
muddy water from a large pit dug in the ground. I built a public toilet with
4 flushing toilets and single shower for women and 4 flushing toilets and a
single shower for men (plus a long urinal). The toilets are lit at night
with 12-volt lights that are driven by two car batteries which are recharged
during the day using solar collectors. I hire my neighbors to help maintain
my house and property. When engaging in a new building project on my
property or elsewhere I hire my neighbors. I hire my neighbors to help
plant, cultivate and harvest my corn or beans or tamarinds or rice,
depending on the season. When the harvest is done and I've sold my crops I
have a feast for the community. I save a portion of my rice crop, store it
in my barn and provide it to my neighbors at cost, or for free if they have
no money. When someone is sick I tend to them and provide advice and
medication if I feel comfortable doing so. If they need to go to a doctor or
hospital I give them a ride. When one of my neighbors is repairing their
roof or digging a dry well I go and help. I never give them money for
nothing. When hungry I eat. When tired I sleep.

When are you moving to Africa? 

...Bill!

From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:04 PM
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality

Hi Bill,

It makes sense to start to alleviate my suffering by getting rid of my
attachments. I will treat this seriously.

On the other hand, I am not going to join a political group. You must have
noticed in the country you live, Chamlong is a leader of the opposition. I
don't understand his current actions. When I was there years ago, he was
Bangkok's mayor. But he had to quit before the expiry of his term. Because
he was too clean to be a politician.

How about your attitude on suffering you see in all those places? Do you
have compassion? Do you do anything about it?

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 15/10/08,[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 1:06 PM
Anthony, My responses are embedded below:

>That is what I expected to be your answer: there is no suffering
>to save. How about starving African people, those who go through
>tortures, political oppression, rape victims, bereaved family,
>etc etc? Do we just stand by to laugh?

I'm not exactly sure what your question is:

If your question is 'How should I, Anthony, help alleviate starvation,
political oppression, and violent crimes among African people?', I would
answer 'I don't really know'. That's a political problem and probably
requires a political solution. But I would advise you to start by
alleviating your own suffering by getting rid of your attachments. Then you
could join (or start) a political group and work and attempt to enable the
changes in Africa that you want to see.

What are you going to do?

>I expect your answer to be: teach those people to get rid of attachment
>to the suffering. Right?

If your question is 'How should I, Anthony, help African people alleviate
their suffering which is due to attachments? ', I would answer 'I don't
really know'. That's a personal problem and probably requires a personal
solution. But I would advise you to start by alleviating your own suffering
by getting rid of your attachments. Then you could move to Africa and begin
helping one person at a time.

What are you going to do?

...Bill!

--- On Tue, 14/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 7:14 PM
Anthony,

'Digression' is my middle name!

See my responses embedded below:

>A hammer hitting a toe occurs every day and everywhere in the world,
>resulting in a lot suffering. How does zen address this problem?

Pain is not what Buddhism means when it talks about suffering. Pain is pain.
OUCH! Suffering, in the Buddhist sense, is the result of attachment -
wanting things. It is this suffering that Buddhism seeks to end. Not pain.
OUCH! (Of course if you were not ATTACHED (physically attached) to your toe,
then hitting it wouldn't hurt, would it? But, if you were not attached to
your toe, would it still be YOUR toe? Maybe you've come up with a new koan.
Cool!)

>Many zen masters still remember the origin of zen, which is
>mahayana Buddhism has a root vow of Bodhisatva to save all
>sentient beings in the world. I have trouble seeing that reconciled
>with the non duality.

If you see that all attachments and therefore suffering is illusory, then
you have 'saved yourself' (Hinayana), and in doing so you have destroyed the
dualism that separates 'you' from 'others' and have therefore already saved
'all sentient beings' (Mahayana), and doing this enables you to realize
there were no sentient beings and no saving action that had to be done in
the first place (Zen), and that there only ever was, is and will be Just
THIS! (zen) 

>If causality is illusory, are there rules that govern human behavior,
>such as karma, in place of God, so that man have to think twice, before
>they commit evil deeds?

My experience and opinion is that causality is illusory; so there are no
rules that govern human behavior, no karma, and no God. If you think once,
much less twice, you are already lost!

...Bill!

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