Good post Mike!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I'm not sure what I can help you with. You seem to be going through 
a period of soul-searching and asking yourself questions relating to 
morality, how to achieve world peace and various questions relating 
to religion. We all do. No-one else can piss for you and no-one else 
can give you the answers to these questions. You are, however, in a 
good position to start some kind of answer seeking. As Bill! said, 
first you need to work on yourself. In fact that is all you can do. 
Sit. Start meditating for short periods and lengthen them gradually. 
First of all, aim to sit quietly just feeling the air enter your nose 
and leave your nose. Don't count your breath - this is like a mantra 
and is great for putting you in a trance, but cuts you off from your 
body. Don't suppress your thoughts, but at the same time don't follow 
them either. Keep coming back to the feeling of the breath entering 
and leaving your nose. 
> 
> If you sit like this for a while you will come to understand the 
meaning of the great Serenity prayer:  
> 
> O God, give us
> serenity to accept what cannot be changed,
> courage to change what should be changed,
> and wisdom to distinguish the one from the other. 
> 
> This can only be understood subjectively. In other words, only by 
YOU! If you feel you need to go to Africa - go. If you feel you can 
be an example to others by transforming your lifestyle - don't go. 
But be led by your own innate wisdom - not by others.
> 
> Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 8:52:53
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> 
> 
> If that is not simple enough. Here we go:
>  
> I cannot do anything on my own. I need your help.
>  
> Regards
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:
> 
> From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 7:27 AM
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> Ok, I'm waiting. When are you going to put it in simple bloody 
English?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Thursday, 16 October, 2008 7:59:00
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> 
> 
> Mike,
>  
> To put it in simple bloody English, I cannot convince myself that a 
world without morality is still as peaceful as we have law and order. 
>  
> You can say a certain kind of morality is wrong. OK, what is your 
right morality? Make revolution and overthrow the old one and 
establish a new morality. During your revolution, there is turmoil. 
But after that, there will be peace for a period of time. That is 
history. You cannot have peace from the big bang to doomsday.
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:
> 
> From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 6:37 AM
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony.
> 
> What can't you do by yourself?
> 
> Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:15:43
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
>  
> I am not yet convinced, and I don't think I can do it myself. So I 
need help. You cannot do everything on your own. Things second hand 
may be useful.
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:
> 
> From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 6:07 PM
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I'm afraid you're going to have to convince yourself. Morality 
gleaned vicariously or from second-hand sources has no depth, no 
lasting power, is fickle and therefore not valid. As Buddha said, be 
your own guiding lamp.
> 
> Mike. 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 18:55:10
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
>  
> I am waiting to be convinced that without morality we can still 
live in peace.
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Wed, 15/10/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote:
> 
> From: mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 11:38 AM
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> You argue so strongly about morality, and the perceived lack of it 
in Zen,
> 
> so can you tell us - what exactly are you doing about the issues 
you mentioned below?
> 
> Mike.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com.sg>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 8:24:30
> Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> 
> 
> Dear Digression,
>  
> That is what I expected to be your answer: there is no suffering to 
save. How about starving African people, those who go through 
tortures, political oppression, rape victims, bereaved family, etc 
etc? Do we just stand by to laugh?
>  
> I expect your answer to be: teach those people to get rid of 
attachment to the suffering. Right?
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 14/10/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
org> wrote:
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] org <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
> Subject: RE: [Zen] Practical aspects of Causality
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 7:14 PM
> 
> 
> Anthony,
> 
> 'Digression' is my middle name!
> 
> See my responses embedded below:
> 
> >A hammer hitting a toe occurs every day and everywhere in the 
world,
> >resulting in a lot suffering. How does zen address this problem?
> 
> Pain is not what Buddhism means when it talks about suffering. Pain 
is pain. OUCH! Suffering, in the Buddhist sense, is the result of 
attachment - wanting things. It is this suffering that Buddhism seeks 
to end. Not pain. OUCH! (Of course if you were not ATTACHED 
(physically attached) to your toe, then hitting it wouldn't hurt, 
would it? But, if you were not attached to your toe, would it still 
be YOUR toe? Maybe you've come up with a new koan. Cool!)
> 
> >Many zen masters still remember the origin of zen, which is
> >mahayana Buddhism has a root vow of Bodhisatva to save all
> >sentient beings in the world. I have trouble seeing that reconciled
> >with the non duality.
> 
> If you see that all attachments and therefore suffering is 
illusory, then you have 'saved yourself' (Hinayana), and in doing so 
you have destroyed the dualism that separates 'you' from 'others' and 
have therefore already saved 'all sentient beings' (Mahayana), and 
doing this enables you to realize there were no sentient beings and 
no saving action that had to be done in the first place (Zen), and 
that there only ever was, is and will be Just THIS! (zen) 
> 
> >If causality is illusory, are there rules that govern human 
behavior,
> >such as karma, in place of God, so that man have to think twice, 
before
> >they commit evil deeds?
> 
> My experience and opinion is that causality is illusory; so there 
are no rules that govern human behavior, no karma, and no God. If you 
think once, much less twice, you are already lost!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> 
>  
> 
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