Okay, lurking or not I couldn't resist this one.  I especially want 
to respond since I think it also addresses the APPARENT ongoing 
diagreement bewtween Edgar and me about cause-and-effect, which is 
the basis of karma.

Although not active on the site I've done a little reading and found 
this quote from the Prajnaparamita Sutra:

Subhuti said: "If I understand correctly, one who wishes to reach 
perfect wisdom should study the way things are in the world and 
should practice the perfections fully and in depth but should not 
believe them to be ultimately real, nor should he make concepts and 
doctrines out of them."

The Buddha replied: "Just so, Subhuti. The one who contemplates 
existence in this way knows the nature of the conditioned and of the 
unconditioned and makes himself an expert in pointing out the truth 
to others, both with words and without words."

This quote, I beleive, addresss your challenge about karma and Edgar 
and my recent postings about cause-and-effect.  I would 
explain it that as long as you are under the illusion of having 
a 'self' there is a 'you' acting or being acted upon.  And as long 
there is a 'you' 'acting', you will have illusions of 'past' 
and 'future', and 'you' will be subject to cause-and-effect, or karma.
  
But, when are no longer under the illusion of 'self', there is 
no 'you' acting or being acted upon, in fact no 'actions'.  That 
means there is only the present.  There is no past or future.  If 
there are no actions or past or future, then there can be no cause-
and-effect or karma.  So when you are free fom the illusion of 'self' 
you are no longer subject to cause-and-effect or karma.  Not being 
subject to does not mean you are not aware of these illusions and can 
choose to act in accordance with them if you wish.

The quote goes on to say: 

Subhuti asked: "But is this just for the wise and the intelligent?"

"No, indeed," replied the Buddha. "This is open to all, even to the 
dull witted and to those who can't pay attention. The door is open to 
anyone who wants to tread this path--but not to the person who is 
lazy and indifferent."

This part of the quote to me, especially at this time in my life, 
addresses my experiences with my Mom and the other Alhzheimer 
patients with which I have daily contact and from whom I learned so 
much.

...Bill!  (Going back to Lurking-Mode now...)




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>  
> Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here is a 
multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted by Edgar is 
a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the past and the 
future? What is the position of karma in zen? 
>  
> A.  Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It is the 
essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
>  
> B.  Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is nothing to 
do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we don't care.
>  
> C.  Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare kids, so 
they behave themselves.
>  
> Regards,
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is living our lives 
in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do we gain an 
immense appreciation for every transient moment of life and live it 
to the fullest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@ ..> 
wrote:
> >
> > ANYONE STILL HERE?
> > 
> > Edgar
> >
> Edgar et al,
> 
> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and I had to 
fly 
> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I was 
somewhere 
> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was informed of his 
> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in Detroit.
> 
> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting lymphoma (cancer 
of 
> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe 
discomfort 
> for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 Nov, just 3 
> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
> 
> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a retirement home 
which 
> is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother who is 89 
and 
> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my mom up to the 
> apartment every day,and to interact not only with her but with all 
> the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see Buddha Nature 
> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with some 
elderly 
> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No clever 
games 
> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is what you 
> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS!
> 
> I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to sort out 
all 
> the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to receive 
all 
> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to live the 
rest 
> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that is dealing 
> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also there was the 
> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past several months 
full 
> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still haven't been 
able 
> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the arrangements with 
> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance and hopfully 
> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of this is 
planning 
> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a facility 
near 
> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas.
> 
> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the way of 
postings 
> for probably through the first of the year.
> 
> With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       Get your preferred Email name!
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
> http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
>



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