Edgar and Bill;

Hope you both don't mind me to get into the discussion.

I just wanted to point it out to Bill that although your first post 
was worth to be taken into consideration there was something missing 
on it and that was that the Prajnaparamitra Sutra also says:

Form is emptiness and emptiness is form and that is the same with all 
senses.  I'm pointing quite strong this because Bill seems to forget 
about that.

Please keep the debate going.  I love it!
Mayka

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Edgar,
> 
> I think we're getting dangerously close to agreement, or something 
> very similar.
> 
> I do think Buddha's words supported my interpretation of my 
previous 
> post, but even if they didn't I don't need to lean on Buddha or the 
> Sutras to explain to my own experience of Just THIS!
> 
> First there is a mountain,
> Then there is no mountain,
> Then there is.
> 
> In the context of our discussions I'll use an analogy to try to 
> communicate what this means to me:
> 
> 
> First there is a mountian.
> It's like you're in a play, but at first don't know you're in a 
> play.  You've been assigned, or created, your role as a 'nice guy 
who 
> loves horses' or something like that.  You BELIEVE you are a nice 
guy 
> who loves horses, and there is an evil guy who likes to hurt horses 
> when he trains them, and a nice young woman who rides horses, and a 
> dumb stable guy who cleans up after the horses, etc... and you 
> interact with everyone else in the play accordingly.
> 
> Then there is no mountain.
> Then you realize it's all just a play, and all of these characters 
> are you.  You're creating them all and all the interplay of these 
> characters.  In fact if you want you can exit stage left and go out 
> into the front of the stage and just watch all these characters 
> interact, including 'your' character.  And even futher than that 
when 
> you want to you can just close the curtin and the play ceases.
> 
> Then there is.
> You decide that instead of stopping the play entirely, or just 
being 
> a spectator, you want to return to the stage and actively play 
> different parts when that part is called for.  Buddhists would say 
do 
> what's called for to save all sentient beings.  Sometimes you're 
the 
> nice guy, sometmes you're the trainer, sometimes you're the stable 
> guy, but you ALWAYS KNOW it's just a play - an illusion.
> 
> How close is that to your understanding/experience?
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> > 
> > Several comments. I'm sympathetic and in general agreement with 
> your  
> > statement but disappointed Buddha doesn't agree with it! :-)
> > 
> > Buddha specifically speaks to Subhuti by name thus acknowledging 
> his  
> > individual selfness. Not only that he speaks of the conditioned 
> (that  
> > is the caused) as well as the unconditioned as things that both  
> > exist. At the end Buddha goes on to speak of the natures of all 
> sorts  
> > of different individual human selves as selves.
> > 
> > Of course you (and I) also make the same 'mistake' by referring 
to 
> me  
> > by my name, which denotes my self.
> > 
> > I don't however agree that when you recognize and are free from 
> the  
> > illusion of self there is no longer any cause and effect. Cause 
> and  
> > effect is the nature of illusion, and illusion seen as illusion 
is  
> > reality. So cause and effect are illusory, but that's what is 
> real.  
> > In a fundamental sense we are never 'free' from illusion, we  
> > recognize illusion as illusion, but it still exists, and we 
> continue  
> > to live in the world of illusion - we just now know it is 
illusory.
> > 
> > Originally there are mountains - illusion is taken as reality.
> > Then mountains are not mountains - all forms are realized as 
> illusory.
> > Finally mountains are mountains again - illusion seen as illusion 
> is  
> > recognized as what is real, the true nature of things.
> > 
> > By denying cause and effect you affirm stage 2, not stage 3.
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > However
> > On Nov 24, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > 
> > > Okay, lurking or not I couldn't resist this one. I especially 
want
> > > to respond since I think it also addresses the APPARENT ongoing
> > > diagreement bewtween Edgar and me about cause-and-effect, which 
is
> > > the basis of karma.
> > >
> > > Although not active on the site I've done a little reading and 
> found
> > > this quote from the Prajnaparamita Sutra:
> > >
> > > Subhuti said: "If I understand correctly, one who wishes to 
reach
> > > perfect wisdom should study the way things are in the world and
> > > should practice the perfections fully and in depth but should 
not
> > > believe them to be ultimately real, nor should he make concepts 
> and
> > > doctrines out of them."
> > >
> > > The Buddha replied: "Just so, Subhuti. The one who contemplates
> > > existence in this way knows the nature of the conditioned and 
of 
> the
> > > unconditioned and makes himself an expert in pointing out the 
> truth
> > > to others, both with words and without words."
> > >
> > > This quote, I beleive, addresss your challenge about karma and 
> Edgar
> > > and my recent postings about cause-and-effect. I would
> > > explain it that as long as you are under the illusion of having
> > > a 'self' there is a 'you' acting or being acted upon. And as 
long
> > > there is a 'you' 'acting', you will have illusions of 'past'
> > > and 'future', and 'you' will be subject to cause-and-effect, or 
> karma.
> > >
> > > But, when are no longer under the illusion of 'self', there is
> > > no 'you' acting or being acted upon, in fact no 'actions'. That
> > > means there is only the present. There is no past or future. If
> > > there are no actions or past or future, then there can be no 
> cause-
> > > and-effect or karma. So when you are free fom the illusion 
> of 'self'
> > > you are no longer subject to cause-and-effect or karma. Not 
being
> > > subject to does not mean you are not aware of these illusions 
and 
> can
> > > choose to act in accordance with them if you wish.
> > >
> > > The quote goes on to say:
> > >
> > > Subhuti asked: "But is this just for the wise and the 
> intelligent?"
> > >
> > > "No, indeed," replied the Buddha. "This is open to all, even to 
> the
> > > dull witted and to those who can't pay attention. The door is 
> open to
> > > anyone who wants to tread this path--but not to the person who 
is
> > > lazy and indifferent."
> > >
> > > This part of the quote to me, especially at this time in my 
life,
> > > addresses my experiences with my Mom and the other Alhzheimer
> > > patients with which I have daily contact and from whom I 
learned 
> so
> > > much.
> > >
> > > ...Bill! (Going back to Lurking-Mode now...)
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Â
> > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here is a
> > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted by 
Edgar 
> is
> > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the past 
and 
> the
> > > future? What is the position of karma in zen?
> > > > Â
> > > > A.  Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It is 
the
> > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
> > > > Â
> > > > B.  Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is 
nothing 
> to
> > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we don't 
care.
> > > > Â
> > > > C.  Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare kids, 
so
> > > they behave themselves.
> > > > Â
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Anthony
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is living our 
> lives
> > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do we 
gain 
> an
> > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life and 
live 
> it
> > > to the fullest.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@ ..>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ANYONE STILL HERE?
> > > > >Â
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > Edgar et al,
> > > >
> > > > I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and I had 
to
> > > flyÂ
> > > > to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I was
> > > somewhereÂ
> > > > over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was informed of 
> hisÂ
> > > > death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in 
Detroit.
> > > >
> > > > I was a good death for him. He had been fighting lymphoma 
> (cancer
> > > ofÂ
> > > > the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe
> > > discomfortÂ
> > > > for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 Nov, 
just 
> 3Â
> > > > days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
> > > >
> > > > I am now residing in my father's apartment in a retirement 
home
> > > whichÂ
> > > > is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother who 
is 
> 89
> > > andÂ
> > > > has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my mom up 
to 
> theÂ
> > > > apartment every day,and to interact not only with her but 
with 
> allÂ
> > > > the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see Buddha 
NatureÂ
> > > > unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with some
> > > elderlyÂ
> > > > people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No clever
> > > gamesÂ
> > > > or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is what 
> youÂ
> > > > get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS!
> > > >
> > > > I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to sort 
out
> > > allÂ
> > > > the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to 
receive
> > > allÂ
> > > > the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to live 
the
> > > restÂ
> > > > of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that is 
> dealingÂ
> > > > with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also there 
was 
> theÂ
> > > > mountain of mail which accumulated over the past several 
months
> > > fullÂ
> > > > of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still haven't 
been
> > > ableÂ
> > > > to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the arrangements 
> withÂ
> > > > Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance and 
> hopfullyÂ
> > > > some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of this is
> > > planningÂ
> > > > and accompanying her on a to northern California to a facility
> > > nearÂ
> > > > two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas.
> > > >
> > > > I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the way of
> > > postingsÂ
> > > > for probably through the first of the year.
> > > >
> > > > With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Get your preferred Email name!
> > > > Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
> > > > http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>



------------------------------------

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