Bill,

Your conclusion sounds more like multiple personality disorder to me! :-)


One needs to understand the meaning of the word 'illusion'. Illusion in the Zen sense doesn't mean what is experienced isn't really there, it means that what is experienced is not actually as it is experienced.

Illusion consists of many many veils of illusion each covering another. E.g. we experience the world of matter as solid. That apparent solidity is an illusion since we know that atoms are actually almost entirely areas of empty space containing vibrational energies. That is one veil of illusion drawn back. We also know that the actual visual world looks nothing at all like we see it, and we see only the model of the world that our mind constructs. Another veil. Even worse, we know that the whole idea of ourself as experiencer and the world as what is experienced is entirely a construction of the mind of that very mental construction! Another couple of veils. There are innumerable other veils which I won't go into now, but each understood reveals one more reason to understand that the world is not at all as we experience it.

So that is the sense that the world is illusion, not that it doesn't exist, but that it is not actually as we experience it.

But where does that leave us? Well, some illusions can be understood and dropped, mainly the top level veils associated with desires and attachments and ignorance of what science tells us about the nature of reality. But most of the veils cannot be dropped because they are part of who we are as human beings, part of our biological and physical nature. E.g. we can intellectually understand the quantum world but we can never experience it because we are classical world macroscopic beings.

Thus the third stage. All that exists, what experience is, is the same old world we started out with, the world we now know is illusory. So the best we can do is to accept the world of forms as it is, but to realize it is illusion. The mountain is a mountain again, an illusory mountain, but the illusory mountain is what is real....

Thus the causal rules which appear to govern the world of illusion are what is real. We live only in the world of forms so we are subject to those rules. That is daily life....

Except in deep meditation when thoughts about such things vanish.... Then, Just this!

Knowing the true nature of things, that the only reality is illusion.

Edgar



On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bill Smart wrote:

Edgar,

I think we're getting dangerously close to agreement, or something
very similar.

I do think Buddha's words supported my interpretation of my previous
post, but even if they didn't I don't need to lean on Buddha or the
Sutras to explain to my own experience of Just THIS!

First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

In the context of our discussions I'll use an analogy to try to
communicate what this means to me:

First there is a mountian.
It's like you're in a play, but at first don't know you're in a
play. You've been assigned, or created, your role as a 'nice guy who
loves horses' or something like that. You BELIEVE you are a nice guy
who loves horses, and there is an evil guy who likes to hurt horses
when he trains them, and a nice young woman who rides horses, and a
dumb stable guy who cleans up after the horses, etc... and you
interact with everyone else in the play accordingly.

Then there is no mountain.
Then you realize it's all just a play, and all of these characters
are you. You're creating them all and all the interplay of these
characters. In fact if you want you can exit stage left and go out
into the front of the stage and just watch all these characters
interact, including 'your' character. And even futher than that when
you want to you can just close the curtin and the play ceases.

Then there is.
You decide that instead of stopping the play entirely, or just being
a spectator, you want to return to the stage and actively play
different parts when that part is called for. Buddhists would say do
what's called for to save all sentient beings. Sometimes you're the
nice guy, sometmes you're the trainer, sometimes you're the stable
guy, but you ALWAYS KNOW it's just a play - an illusion.

How close is that to your understanding/experience?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Several comments. I'm sympathetic and in general agreement with
your
> statement but disappointed Buddha doesn't agree with it! :-)
>
> Buddha specifically speaks to Subhuti by name thus acknowledging
his
> individual selfness. Not only that he speaks of the conditioned
(that
> is the caused) as well as the unconditioned as things that both
> exist. At the end Buddha goes on to speak of the natures of all
sorts
> of different individual human selves as selves.
>
> Of course you (and I) also make the same 'mistake' by referring to
me
> by my name, which denotes my self.
>
> I don't however agree that when you recognize and are free from
the
> illusion of self there is no longer any cause and effect. Cause
and
> effect is the nature of illusion, and illusion seen as illusion is
> reality. So cause and effect are illusory, but that's what is
real.
> In a fundamental sense we are never 'free' from illusion, we
> recognize illusion as illusion, but it still exists, and we
continue
> to live in the world of illusion - we just now know it is illusory.
>
> Originally there are mountains - illusion is taken as reality.
> Then mountains are not mountains - all forms are realized as
illusory.
> Finally mountains are mountains again - illusion seen as illusion
is
> recognized as what is real, the true nature of things.
>
> By denying cause and effect you affirm stage 2, not stage 3.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
> However
> On Nov 24, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
>
> > Okay, lurking or not I couldn't resist this one. I especially want
> > to respond since I think it also addresses the APPARENT ongoing
> > diagreement bewtween Edgar and me about cause-and-effect, which is
> > the basis of karma.
> >
> > Although not active on the site I've done a little reading and
found
> > this quote from the Prajnaparamita Sutra:
> >
> > Subhuti said: "If I understand correctly, one who wishes to reach
> > perfect wisdom should study the way things are in the world and
> > should practice the perfections fully and in depth but should not
> > believe them to be ultimately real, nor should he make concepts
and
> > doctrines out of them."
> >
> > The Buddha replied: "Just so, Subhuti. The one who contemplates
> > existence in this way knows the nature of the conditioned and of
the
> > unconditioned and makes himself an expert in pointing out the
truth
> > to others, both with words and without words."
> >
> > This quote, I beleive, addresss your challenge about karma and
Edgar
> > and my recent postings about cause-and-effect. I would
> > explain it that as long as you are under the illusion of having
> > a 'self' there is a 'you' acting or being acted upon. And as long
> > there is a 'you' 'acting', you will have illusions of 'past'
> > and 'future', and 'you' will be subject to cause-and-effect, or
karma.
> >
> > But, when are no longer under the illusion of 'self', there is
> > no 'you' acting or being acted upon, in fact no 'actions'. That
> > means there is only the present. There is no past or future. If
> > there are no actions or past or future, then there can be no
cause-
> > and-effect or karma. So when you are free fom the illusion
of 'self'
> > you are no longer subject to cause-and-effect or karma. Not being
> > subject to does not mean you are not aware of these illusions and
can
> > choose to act in accordance with them if you wish.
> >
> > The quote goes on to say:
> >
> > Subhuti asked: "But is this just for the wise and the
intelligent?"
> >
> > "No, indeed," replied the Buddha. "This is open to all, even to
the
> > dull witted and to those who can't pay attention. The door is
open to
> > anyone who wants to tread this path--but not to the person who is
> > lazy and indifferent."
> >
> > This part of the quote to me, especially at this time in my life,
> > addresses my experiences with my Mom and the other Alhzheimer
> > patients with which I have daily contact and from whom I learned
so
> > much.
> >
> > ...Bill! (Going back to Lurking-Mode now...)
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > Â
> > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here is a
> > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted by Edgar
is
> > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the past and
the
> > future? What is the position of karma in zen?
> > > Â
> > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It is the
> > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
> > > Â
> > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is nothing
to
> > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we don't care.
> > > Â
> > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare kids, so
> > they behave themselves.
> > > Â
> > > Regards,
> > > Anthony
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is living our
lives
> > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do we gain
an
> > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life and live
it
> > to the fullest.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@ ..>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ANYONE STILL HERE?
> > > >Â
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > Edgar et al,
> > >
> > > I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and I had to
> > flyÂ
> > > to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I was
> > somewhereÂ
> > > over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was informed of
hisÂ
> > > death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in Detroit.
> > >
> > > I was a good death for him. He had been fighting lymphoma
(cancer
> > ofÂ
> > > the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe
> > discomfortÂ
> > > for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 Nov, just
3Â
> > > days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
> > >
> > > I am now residing in my father's apartment in a retirement home
> > whichÂ
> > > is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother who is
89
> > andÂ
> > > has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my mom up to
theÂ
> > > apartment every day,and to interact not only with her but with
allÂ
> > > the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see Buddha NatureÂ
> > > unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with some
> > elderlyÂ
> > > people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No clever
> > gamesÂ
> > > or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is what
youÂ
> > > get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS!
> > >
> > > I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to sort out
> > allÂ
> > > the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to receive
> > allÂ
> > > the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to live the
> > restÂ
> > > of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that is
dealingÂ
> > > with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also there was
theÂ
> > > mountain of mail which accumulated over the past several months
> > fullÂ
> > > of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still haven't been
> > ableÂ
> > > to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the arrangements
withÂ
> > > Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance and
hopfullyÂ
> > > some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of this is
> > planningÂ
> > > and accompanying her on a to northern California to a facility
> > nearÂ
> > > two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas.
> > >
> > > I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the way of
> > postingsÂ
> > > for probably through the first of the year.
> > >
> > > With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Get your preferred Email name!
> > > Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com
> > > http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>




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