Edgar; I don't usually talk much about karma. I can only say the way I understand karma which can be expressed in only two words action and reaction or consequence of an action. I can support TNH in his say "our actions are our only true belongings". Meaning that we don't owe anything else.
If you drink a bottle of wine, get drunk, saying and doing things as a rection of your wine. No matter how hard you try to ammend your foolish behavior that whatever action you might have done in the process of being drunk will have a reaction or consequence. This is karma. You do something whether is good or bad and whatever you do has a reaction. The result of the action and reaction is what I call karma. Agree with you that the word karma is often used in a kind of supertitious way by many people. But the word karma what it means is simply action and reaction of an action. All the rest are purely invented decorations. Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mayka, > > There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good causes > always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are harmed > and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time. > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote: > > > Edgar; > > > > In the way I have always understand Karma is as an > > accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in reincarnation > > and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I say. I > > believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small > > things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up > > through the actions on its history and the results as a karma at the > > present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same > > pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't come from > > any past life by through our personal actions and the result as > > consequences whether positive or negative of that actions. One just > > need to observe all this in order to see that this is like this and > > not just an idea. > > > > Mayka > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > > > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and > > effect > > > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms operates. > > > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers that > > they > > > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and even if > > > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure Karma > > > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there is some > > > correlation between how one treats others and how others treat > > one, > > > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next lifetime, > > > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap evil in > > > return instead of good. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar; > > > > > > > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that religion > > is > > > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this also aplies > > to > > > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a religion. What > > I > > > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation, speculation, > > > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow the Dalai > > > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in Christianity. I'm > > > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow these two > > Leaders > > > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more snobish or > > > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything and at the > > > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a matter of > > > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha Nature > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not believing > > but a > > > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think? > > > > > > > > Mayka > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults who are > > > > suffering > > > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in the next if > > > > they > > > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this one. Same as > > > > the > > > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and suffering > > and > > > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition. As Marx > > said, > > > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes both karma > > and > > > > > Christian heaven. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here is a > > > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted by > > Edgar > > > > is > > > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the past > > > > and > > > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen? > > > > > > > > > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It is the > > > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen. > > > > > > > > > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is nothing > > > > to > > > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we don't > > care. > > > > > > > > > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare kids, so > > > > > > they behave themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is living our > > > > lives > > > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do we > > gain > > > > an > > > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life and > > live > > > > it > > > > > > to the fullest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@ ..> > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Edgar > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Edgar et al, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and I had > > to > > > > fly > > > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I was > > > > somewhere > > > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was informed > > of his > > > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in > > Detroit. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting lymphoma > > > > (cancer of > > > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe > > > > discomfort > > > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 Nov, > > just 3 > > > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a retirement > > home > > > > which > > > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother who > > is > > > > 89 and > > > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my mom up > > to > > > > the > > > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with her but > > with > > > > all > > > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see Buddha > > Nature > > > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with some > > > > elderly > > > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No clever > > > > games > > > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is what > > you > > > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to sort > > out > > > > all > > > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to > > receive > > > > all > > > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to live > > the > > > > rest > > > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that is > > dealing > > > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also there > > was > > > > the > > > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past several > > months > > > > full > > > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still haven't > > been > > > > able > > > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the arrangements > > with > > > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance and > > > > hopfully > > > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of this is > > > > planning > > > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a > > facility > > > > near > > > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the way of > > > > postings > > > > > >> for probably through the first of the year. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Email names for you! > > > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and > > > > > > @rocketmail. > > > > > > Hurry before someone else does! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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