Edgar;

I don't usually talk much about karma.  I can only say the way I 
understand karma which can be expressed in only two words action and 
reaction or consequence of an action.  I can support TNH in his 
say "our actions are our only true belongings".  Meaning that we 
don't owe anything else.  

If you drink a bottle of wine,  get drunk, saying and doing things as 
a rection of your wine.  No matter how hard you try to ammend your 
foolish behavior that whatever action you might have done in the 
process of being drunk will have a reaction or consequence.  This is 
karma.  You do something whether is good or bad and whatever you do 
has a reaction. The result of the action and reaction is what I call 
karma.  

Agree with you that the word karma is often used in a kind of 
supertitious way by many people.  But the word karma what it means is 
simply action and reaction of an action.  All the rest are purely  
invented decorations.

Mayka


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good 
causes  
> always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are 
harmed  
> and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote:
> 
> > Edgar;
> >
> > In the way I have always understand Karma is as an
> > accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in 
reincarnation
> > and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I say. I
> > believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small
> > things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up
> > through the actions on its history and the results as a karma at 
the
> > present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same
> > pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't come from
> > any past life by through our personal actions and the result as
> > consequences whether positive or negative of that actions. One 
just
> > need to observe all this in order to see that this is like this 
and
> > not just an idea.
> >
> > Mayka
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mayka,
> > >
> > > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and
> > effect
> > > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms 
operates.
> > > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers that
> > they
> > > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and even 
if
> > > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure Karma
> > > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there is some
> > > correlation between how one treats others and how others treat
> > one,
> > > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next 
lifetime,
> > > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap evil in
> > > return instead of good.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edgar;
> > > >
> > > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that 
religion
> > is
> > > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this also 
aplies
> > to
> > > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a religion. 
What
> > I
> > > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation, 
speculation,
> > > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow the 
Dalai
> > > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in Christianity. 
I'm
> > > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow these two
> > Leaders
> > > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more 
snobish or
> > > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything and 
at the
> > > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a matter of
> > > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha 
Nature
> > > > everywhere.
> > > >
> > > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not believing
> > but a
> > > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think?
> > > >
> > > > Mayka
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> 
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Anthony,
> > > > >
> > > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults who are
> > > > suffering
> > > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in the 
next if
> > > > they
> > > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this one. 
Same as
> > > > the
> > > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and 
suffering
> > and
> > > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition. As Marx
> > said,
> > > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes both 
karma
> > and
> > > > > Christian heaven.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here is 
a
> > > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted by
> > Edgar
> > > > is
> > > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the 
past
> > > > and
> > > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It is 
the
> > > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is 
nothing
> > > > to
> > > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we 
don't
> > care.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare 
kids, so
> > > > > > they behave themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
> > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is living 
our
> > > > lives
> > > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do 
we
> > gain
> > > > an
> > > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life 
and
> > live
> > > > it
> > > > > > to the fullest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen 
<edgarowen@ ..>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Edgar
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> Edgar et al,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and I 
had
> > to
> > > > fly
> > > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I 
was
> > > > somewhere
> > > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was 
informed
> > of his
> > > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in
> > Detroit.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting lymphoma
> > > > (cancer of
> > > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe
> > > > discomfort
> > > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 Nov,
> > just 3
> > > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a 
retirement
> > home
> > > > which
> > > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother 
who
> > is
> > > > 89 and
> > > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my mom 
up
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with her but
> > with
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see Buddha
> > Nature
> > > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with 
some
> > > > elderly
> > > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No 
clever
> > > > games
> > > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is 
what
> > you
> > > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to 
sort
> > out
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to
> > receive
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to 
live
> > the
> > > > rest
> > > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that is
> > dealing
> > > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also 
there
> > was
> > > > the
> > > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past several
> > months
> > > > full
> > > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still 
haven't
> > been
> > > > able
> > > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the 
arrangements
> > with
> > > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance and
> > > > hopfully
> > > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of this 
is
> > > > planning
> > > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a
> > facility
> > > > near
> > > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the 
way of
> > > > postings
> > > > > >> for probably through the first of the year.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New Email names for you!
> > > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail 
and
> > > > > > @rocketmail.
> > > > > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>



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