Hi Donald!

Thanks for the illustrative post you've send us.  It's a good 
descriptive explanation for karma. I share with you: "Karma like chi, 
needs to be observed, sensed, processed".  I would like to add to 
this that perhaps we first we have to acknoweldege the action within 
and outside oneselves. Without acknowledgement can not exist 
observation.  Akcnowledgement of what is going on within and around 
is the ground of awareness.  We go nowhere without awareness. Once we 
have acknowledge the action or the result of the action then we 
observe within and around oneselves. 

There is need to be clarified that in the process of karma, we as 
individuals alone are not isolated the results of universal karma 
since we are not separated form entities.  Whatever we do is going to 
have an impact in the whole universe.

There is an inhereted karma which I believe one can not escape.  
According to Donald one can if one practice this or that.  I don't 
think so since there is certain karma that it doesn't depends on 
oneselves alone but also external karma such as enviromental 
conditions, society, explotation, discrimination, greed, cruelty, 
anger, violence....I don't know your jobs guys but mine is to learn 
how to swim in the mud of the pond lotus flowers without getting 
affected by the mud but by Transforming, making the mud as the pure, 
shining beatiful White lotus.  We can become the white lotus flower 
if we want.  

Estern people give a little much importance to the healthy appearance 
of people and the truth is that in my experience I have frecuently 
seen a lot of more beauty amongst wrecked people of the streets, 
disabled and sick people.  It is not say that a healthy external 
appareance goes with a healthy internal beauty. It sometimes is on 
the other way round.  This is why is very important to learn how to 
see with eyes of the Buddha and not with eyes of the humans. 

A white lotus flower to you all
Mayka


 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Edgar/Bill/Mayka/Anthony, 
> 
> I have tried to avoid discussing karma in labels and concepts only, 
> because there are so many different versions. Yet it is so 
important and 
> so misunderstood.   I will try to put it into words. First of all, 
if 
> you don't believe in cause and effect, then there is no point to 
read on.
> 
> You each are right in a partial way, because words are incomplete 
by 
> nature.  I will try to explain from my experience, but also 
incomplete 
> through words.  Karma like chi, needs to be observed, sensed, 
processed, 
> experienced.  Mayka is right in this case.  The key is not for any 
us to 
> "believe" or "not believe".  To think that we "know" or "not 
know".  
> Agree or not agree.  There is nothing to know.  Nothing to agree.  
Just 
> experience.  We all can.
> 
> In the same domain as Chi, karma is a label for an invisible 
chi, "the 
> energy of cause". or "disturbed chi" or "unregulated chi". Nothing 
> more.  Good or bad karma are human labels applied after 
the "resulted 
> effect" becomes apparent.  In this case Edgar is right.
> 
> If you are sick, it is caused by karma.  In this case karma could 
mean 
> blocked chi, mental anguish, genetic.  When the karma is relieved, 
the 
> discomfort is gone.  If you are in an accident, it is caused by 
karma.  
> In this case karma could mean, lack of focus, cause by the lack of 
focus 
> of others, cause of this cause and other multiple causes.  Karma is 
just 
> another "label for cause" and in our school, everything can be 
> attributed to various forms of chi.
> 
> In the reward system mentioned by Anthony and Mayka, it can be 
observed 
> in this life as simply as the "peacefulness of our spirit".  That 
is the 
> true reward.  Violence never results in peacefulness in anyone.  
And in 
> our school, violent people have "agitated chi" or "disturbed chi".  
They 
> have difficult time to be happy or healthy.  This is where Mayka 
and 
> Anothony is right.
> 
> In multiple generations, it needs to be understood that no matter 
who 
> comes into a family linage, will automatically result in the cause 
and 
> effect of that family linage.  These are what we called family 
karma, or 
> ancestor karma.  Then there is also parental karma.  Cause and 
effect 
> always propagates.  Depending on the time and space we fall in, we 
> becomes entangled with it.
> 
> Many of our practitioners can accurately "tell" many generations of 
> previous lives of oneself and others, which I can't and not able 
to.  
> But there are enough witness to suggest, that we are somehow 
connected 
> with previous causes after we were born.  Visuals however are not 
enough 
> to "prove" that we are resulted from who we were in the previous 
life.
> 
> I hope it helps.  Thank you for your time.
> 
> As to Bill, he is always right, because all he says is just this.  
Like 
> chi, which I emphasize.  :-)
> JM
> 
>  
> 
> Edgar Owen wrote:
> >
> > Mayka,
> >
> >
> > There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good 
causes 
> > always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are 
harmed 
> > and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time.
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote:
> >
> >> Edgar;
> >>
> >> In the way I have always understand Karma is as an
> >> accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in 
reincarnation 
> >> and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I say. 
I 
> >> believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small 
> >> things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up 
> >> through the actions on its history and the results as a karma at 
the 
> >> present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same 
> >> pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't come 
from 
> >> any past life by through our personal actions and the result as 
> >> consequences whether positive or negative of that actions. One 
just 
> >> need to observe all this in order to see that this is like this 
and 
> >> not just an idea.
> >>
> >> Mayka 
> >>
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> 
wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Mayka,
> >> > 
> >> > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and 
> >> effect 
> >> > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms 
operates. 
> >> > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers 
that 
> >> they 
> >> > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and even 
if 
> >> > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure 
Karma 
> >> > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there is 
some 
> >> > correlation between how one treats others and how others treat 
> >> one, 
> >> > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next 
lifetime, 
> >> > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap evil 
in 
> >> > return instead of good.
> >> > 
> >> > Edgar
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > > Edgar;
> >> > >
> >> > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that 
religion 
> >> is
> >> > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this also 
aplies 
> >> to
> >> > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a religion. 
What 
> >> I
> >> > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation, 
speculation,
> >> > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow the 
Dalai
> >> > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in 
Christianity. I'm
> >> > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow these 
two 
> >> Leaders
> >> > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more 
snobish or
> >> > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything and 
at the
> >> > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a matter 
of
> >> > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha 
Nature
> >> > > everywhere.
> >> > >
> >> > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not 
believing 
> >> but a
> >> > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think?
> >> > >
> >> > > Mayka
> >> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> 
wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Anthony,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults who are
> >> > > suffering
> >> > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in the 
next if
> >> > > they
> >> > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this one. 
Same as
> >> > > the
> >> > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and 
suffering 
> >> and
> >> > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition. As 
Marx 
> >> said,
> >> > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes both 
karma 
> >> and
> >> > > > Christian heaven.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Edgar
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here 
is a
> >> > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted 
by 
> >> Edgar
> >> > > is
> >> > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the 
past
> >> > > and
> >> > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It 
is the
> >> > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is 
nothing
> >> > > to
> >> > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we 
don't 
> >> care.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare 
kids, so
> >> > > > > they behave themselves.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > Anthony
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >> > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
> >> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
40yahoogroups.com>
> >> > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Bill,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is 
living our
> >> > > lives
> >> > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do 
we 
> >> gain
> >> > > an
> >> > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life 
and 
> >> live
> >> > > it
> >> > > > > to the fullest.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > Edgar
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen 
<edgarowen@ ..>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE?
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Edgar
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> Edgar et al,
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and 
I had 
> >> to
> >> > > fly
> >> > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I 
was
> >> > > somewhere
> >> > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was 
informed 
> >> of his
> >> > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in 
> >> Detroit.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting 
lymphoma
> >> > > (cancer of
> >> > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe
> >> > > discomfort
> >> > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 
Nov, 
> >> just 3
> >> > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a 
retirement 
> >> home
> >> > > which
> >> > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother 
who 
> >> is
> >> > > 89 and
> >> > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my 
mom up 
> >> to
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with her 
but 
> >> with
> >> > > all
> >> > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see 
Buddha 
> >> Nature
> >> > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with 
some
> >> > > elderly
> >> > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No 
clever
> >> > > games
> >> > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is 
what 
> >> you
> >> > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS!
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to 
sort 
> >> out
> >> > > all
> >> > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to 
> >> receive
> >> > > all
> >> > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to 
live 
> >> the
> >> > > rest
> >> > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that 
is 
> >> dealing
> >> > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also 
there 
> >> was
> >> > > the
> >> > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past 
several 
> >> months
> >> > > full
> >> > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still 
haven't 
> >> been
> >> > > able
> >> > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the 
arrangements 
> >> with
> >> > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance 
and
> >> > > hopfully
> >> > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of 
this is
> >> > > planning
> >> > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a 
> >> facility
> >> > > near
> >> > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the 
way of
> >> > > postings
> >> > > > >> for probably through the first of the year.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > New Email names for you!
> >> > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new 
@ymail and
> >> > > > > @rocketmail.
> >> > > > > Hurry before someone else does!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>



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