Hello Edgar,

You have raised two interesting points here. 

1.  About "Peace in between killing?" Let me share with you a personal 
experience.  As you know, when we order a live fish in a Chinese 
restaurant, the waiter usually brings the live fish over for us to 
approve.  About three or four years ago, without warning, right after I 
nod my head with consent, I get a severe headache.  Thereafter, the 
headache happens every time.  I still EAT live fish sometimes, but have 
asked the waiter not to bring over for approval any more.  Then I check 
around with other practitioners in our school.  Many had similar 
experience.  This is just one of many ways, we can witness karma.  As I 
said, karmic energy is real.  It can be experienced.  Cause and effect 
is real. 

The fact that Japanese Zen Master can sponsor the WWII, proves to me, 
they lost the real practice, otherwise, the karma they generated would 
have kill themselves already.  I apologize for the strong language.  
Just leave it as a personal opinion of mine.

2.  So you believe that in the psychological phenomenon that previous 
lives do exist?  Hmm, do you believe that the "physical world" is not 
related to the spiritual world or there is no logical explanation of the 
cause for these psychological world?  I mean do you think that these two 
worlds are disconnected?  I am curious as to what you would say.

Thanks,
JM
BTW, I just got the email.  I am still having problem with either yahoo 
group or Gmail.  :-)




Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> JM,
>
>
> You say violence never results in peacefulness. How about  samurai, 
> Musashi, etc? They seemed very much at peace in between killing.
>
> As for past lives, I've 'regressed' people many times so they 
> experienced past lives. I've done it to myself and it is quite 
> interesting. Past lives are most certainly a real psychological 
> phenomenon but that doesn't mean they are actually real in the 
> physical world.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:
>
>> Hi Edgar/Bill/Mayka/Anthony, 
>>
>> I have tried to avoid discussing karma in labels and concepts only, 
>> because there are so many different versions. Yet it is so important and 
>> so misunderstood. I will try to put it into words. First of all, if 
>> you don't believe in cause and effect, then there is no point to read on.
>>
>> You each are right in a partial way, because words are incomplete by 
>> nature. I will try to explain from my experience, but also incomplete 
>> through words. Karma like chi, needs to be observed, sensed, processed, 
>> experienced. Mayka is right in this case. The key is not for any us to 
>> "believe" or "not believe". To think that we "know" or "not know". 
>> Agree or not agree. There is nothing to know. Nothing to agree. Just 
>> experience. We all can.
>>
>> In the same domain as Chi, karma is a label for an invisible chi, "the 
>> energy of cause". or "disturbed chi" or "unregulated chi". Nothing 
>> more. Good or bad karma are human labels applied after the "resulted 
>> effect" becomes apparent. In this case Edgar is right.
>>
>> If you are sick, it is caused by karma. In this case karma could mean 
>> blocked chi, mental anguish, genetic. When the karma is relieved, the 
>> discomfort is gone. If you are in an accident, it is caused by karma. 
>> In this case karma could mean, lack of focus, cause by the lack of focus 
>> of others, cause of this cause and other multiple causes. Karma is just 
>> another "label for cause" and in our school, everything can be 
>> attributed to various forms of chi.
>>
>> In the reward system mentioned by Anthony and Mayka, it can be observed 
>> in this life as simply as the "peacefulness of our spirit". That is the 
>> true reward. Violence never results in peacefulness in anyone. And in 
>> our school, violent people have "agitated chi" or "disturbed chi". They 
>> have difficult time to be happy or healthy. This is where Mayka and 
>> Anothony is right.
>>
>> In multiple generations, it needs to be understood that no matter who 
>> comes into a family linage, will automatically result in the cause and 
>> effect of that family linage. These are what we called family karma, or 
>> ancestor karma. Then there is also parental karma. Cause and effect 
>> always propagates. Depending on the time and space we fall in, we 
>> becomes entangled with it.
>>
>> Many of our practitioners can accurately "tell" many generations of 
>> previous lives of oneself and others, which I can't and not able to. 
>> But there are enough witness to suggest, that we are somehow connected 
>> with previous causes after we were born. Visuals however are not enough 
>> to "prove" that we are resulted from who we were in the previous life.
>>
>> I hope it helps. Thank you for your time.
>>
>> As to Bill, he is always right, because all he says is just this. Like 
>> chi, which I emphasize. :-)
>> JM
>>
>> Edgar Owen wrote:
>> >
>> > Mayka,
>> >
>> >
>> > There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good causes 
>> > always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are harmed 
>> > and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time.
>> >
>> > Edgar
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote:
>> >
>> >> Edgar;
>> >>
>> >> In the way I have always understand Karma is as an
>> >> accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in reincarnation 
>> >> and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I say. I 
>> >> believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small 
>> >> things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up 
>> >> through the actions on its history and the results as a karma at the 
>> >> present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same 
>> >> pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't come from 
>> >> any past life by through our personal actions and the result as 
>> >> consequences whether positive or negative of that actions. One just 
>> >> need to observe all this in order to see that this is like this and 
>> >> not just an idea.
>> >>
>> >> Mayka 
>> >>
>> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
>> >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Mayka,
>> >> > 
>> >> > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and 
>> >> effect 
>> >> > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms operates. 
>> >> > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers that 
>> >> they 
>> >> > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and even if 
>> >> > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure Karma 
>> >> > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there is some 
>> >> > correlation between how one treats others and how others treat 
>> >> one, 
>> >> > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next lifetime, 
>> >> > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap evil in 
>> >> > return instead of good.
>> >> > 
>> >> > Edgar
>> >> > 
>> >> > 
>> >> > 
>> >> > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote:
>> >> > 
>> >> > > Edgar;
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that religion 
>> >> is
>> >> > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this also aplies 
>> >> to
>> >> > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a religion. What 
>> >> I
>> >> > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation, speculation,
>> >> > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow the Dalai
>> >> > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in Christianity. I'm
>> >> > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow these two 
>> >> Leaders
>> >> > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more snobish or
>> >> > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything and at the
>> >> > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a matter of
>> >> > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha Nature
>> >> > > everywhere.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not believing 
>> >> but a
>> >> > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Mayka
>> >> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
>> >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Anthony,
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults who are
>> >> > > suffering
>> >> > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in the next if
>> >> > > they
>> >> > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this one. Same as
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and suffering 
>> >> and
>> >> > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition. As Marx 
>> >> said,
>> >> > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes both karma 
>> >> and
>> >> > > > Christian heaven.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Edgar
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Hi,
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. Here is a
>> >> > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code quoted by 
>> >> Edgar
>> >> > > is
>> >> > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about the past
>> >> > > and
>> >> > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. It is the
>> >> > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it is nothing
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth we don't 
>> >> care.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to scare kids, so
>> >> > > > > they behave themselves.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Regards,
>> >> > > > > Anthony
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
>> >> > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
>> >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
>> >> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
>> >> > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Bill,
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is living our
>> >> > > lives
>> >> > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. Thus do we 
>> >> gain
>> >> > > an
>> >> > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of life and 
>> >> live
>> >> > > it
>> >> > > > > to the fullest.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Best,
>> >> > > > > Edgar
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@ ..>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE?
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > Edgar
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> Edgar et al,
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill and I had 
>> >> to
>> >> > > fly
>> >> > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died when I was
>> >> > > somewhere
>> >> > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was informed 
>> >> of his
>> >> > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon arriving in 
>> >> Detroit.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting lymphoma
>> >> > > (cancer of
>> >> > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in severe
>> >> > > discomfort
>> >> > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on 05 Nov, 
>> >> just 3
>> >> > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a retirement 
>> >> home
>> >> > > which
>> >> > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my mother who 
>> >> is
>> >> > > 89 and
>> >> > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring my mom up 
>> >> to
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with her but 
>> >> with
>> >> > > all
>> >> > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients. It you want to see Buddha 
>> >> Nature
>> >> > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time with some
>> >> > > elderly
>> >> > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! No clever
>> >> > > games
>> >> > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you see is what 
>> >> you
>> >> > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just THIS!
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy trying to sort 
>> >> out
>> >> > > all
>> >> > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my mother to 
>> >> receive
>> >> > > all
>> >> > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her to live 
>> >> the
>> >> > > rest
>> >> > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of that is 
>> >> dealing
>> >> > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. Also there 
>> >> was
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past several 
>> >> months
>> >> > > full
>> >> > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still haven't 
>> >> been
>> >> > > able
>> >> > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the arrangements 
>> >> with
>> >> > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health insurance and
>> >> > > hopfully
>> >> > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of this is
>> >> > > planning
>> >> > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a 
>> >> facility
>> >> > > near
>> >> > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa areas.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in the way of
>> >> > > postings
>> >> > > > >> for probably through the first of the year.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > New Email names for you!
>> >> > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and
>> >> > > > > @rocketmail.
>> >> > > > > Hurry before someone else does!
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> > 
>>
>
>  

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