Hi Edgar,

Thank you.  Interesting technique.  I have learned.  Now I understand 
what you mean by psychological phenom.

In deed, these memory recall does not necessarily mean they existed in 
the physical world.   Now I understand your statement.

JM

Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> JM,
>
>
> Past lives, not regression, is what I stated has a psychological reality.
>
> Technique to regress someone is not hypnosis. The subject relaxes on 
> his back in a peaceful situation with his eyes closed and the 
> regressor asks him to tell what he did this morning, yesterday, last 
> year, 10 years ago etc. etc. and to keep remembering what happened 
> before that. The subject typically remembers old childhood 
> experiences, being in the womb, and then things even before that. 
> Basic technique is very simple but the person doing the regression 
> needs to be skilled and always leading the subject's attention further 
> and further back in time without any judgement and a tone of voice 
> that leads to complete trust.
>
> It works for most people in that most people do report past lives, but 
> these are most likely just strong and deep imaginations which reveal 
> their deep self. There is little or no evidence to suggest they were 
> actual physical lives.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2008, at 8:17 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
>
>>
>> Edgar/JM,
>>  
>> I repeat and clarify JM's question. Edgar, what do you mean by karma 
>> is 'psychologically real'? What is 'real'? Only material is real?
>>  
>> Please also clarify your 'regression'. Does it mean hypnotics?
>>  
>> Regards,
>> Anthony
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 29/11/08, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 / 
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>
>>     From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>     Subject: Re: [Zen] Position of Karma in Zen
>>     To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>     Date: Saturday, 29 November, 2008, 9:52 AM
>>
>>     Hello Edgar,
>>
>>     You have raised two interesting points here. 
>>
>>     1. About "Peace in between killing?" Let me share with you a
>>     personal 
>>     experience. As you know, when we order a live fish in a Chinese 
>>     restaurant, the waiter usually brings the live fish over for us to 
>>     approve. About three or four years ago, without warning, right
>>     after I 
>>     nod my head with consent, I get a severe headache. Thereafter, the 
>>     headache happens every time. I still EAT live fish sometimes, but
>>     have 
>>     asked the waiter not to bring over for approval any more. Then I
>>     check 
>>     around with other practitioners in our school. Many had similar 
>>     experience. This is just one of many ways, we can witness karma.
>>     As I 
>>     said, karmic energy is real. It can be experienced. Cause and effect 
>>     is real. 
>>
>>     The fact that Japanese Zen Master can sponsor the WWII, proves to
>>     me, 
>>     they lost the real practice, otherwise, the karma they generated
>>     would 
>>     have kill themselves already. I apologize for the strong language. 
>>     Just leave it as a personal opinion of mine.
>>
>>     2. So you believe that in the psychological phenomenon that previous 
>>     lives do exist? Hmm, do you believe that the "physical world" is not 
>>     related to the spiritual world or there is no logical explanation
>>     of the 
>>     cause for these psychological world? I mean do you think that
>>     these two 
>>     worlds are disconnected? I am curious as to what you would say.
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>     JM
>>     BTW, I just got the email. I am still having problem with either
>>     yahoo 
>>     group or Gmail. :-)
>>
>>     Edgar Owen wrote:
>>     >
>>     > JM,
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > You say violence never results in peacefulness. How about samurai, 
>>     > Musashi, etc? They seemed very much at peace in between killing.
>>     >
>>     > As for past lives, I've 'regressed' people many times so they 
>>     > experienced past lives. I've done it to myself and it is quite 
>>     > interesting. Past lives are most certainly a real psychological 
>>     > phenomenon but that doesn't mean they are actually real in the 
>>     > physical world.
>>     >
>>     > Edgar
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > On Nov 25, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:
>>     >
>>     >> Hi Edgar/Bill/Mayka/ Anthony, 
>>     >>
>>     >> I have tried to avoid discussing karma in labels and concepts
>>     only, 
>>     >> because there are so many different versions. Yet it is so
>>     important and 
>>     >> so misunderstood. I will try to put it into words. First of
>>     all, if 
>>     >> you don't believe in cause and effect, then there is no point
>>     to read on.
>>     >>
>>     >> You each are right in a partial way, because words are
>>     incomplete by 
>>     >> nature. I will try to explain from my experience, but also
>>     incomplete 
>>     >> through words. Karma like chi, needs to be observed, sensed,
>>     processed, 
>>     >> experienced. Mayka is right in this case. The key is not for
>>     any us to 
>>     >> "believe" or "not believe". To think that we "know" or "not know". 
>>     >> Agree or not agree. There is nothing to know. Nothing to agree.
>>     Just 
>>     >> experience. We all can.
>>     >>
>>     >> In the same domain as Chi, karma is a label for an invisible
>>     chi, "the 
>>     >> energy of cause". or "disturbed chi" or "unregulated chi". Nothing 
>>     >> more. Good or bad karma are human labels applied after the
>>     "resulted 
>>     >> effect" becomes apparent. In this case Edgar is right.
>>     >>
>>     >> If you are sick, it is caused by karma. In this case karma
>>     could mean 
>>     >> blocked chi, mental anguish, genetic. When the karma is
>>     relieved, the 
>>     >> discomfort is gone. If you are in an accident, it is caused by
>>     karma. 
>>     >> In this case karma could mean, lack of focus, cause by the lack
>>     of focus 
>>     >> of others, cause of this cause and other multiple causes. Karma
>>     is just 
>>     >> another "label for cause" and in our school, everything can be 
>>     >> attributed to various forms of chi.
>>     >>
>>     >> In the reward system mentioned by Anthony and Mayka, it can be
>>     observed 
>>     >> in this life as simply as the "peacefulness of our spirit".
>>     That is the 
>>     >> true reward. Violence never results in peacefulness in anyone.
>>     And in 
>>     >> our school, violent people have "agitated chi" or "disturbed
>>     chi". They 
>>     >> have difficult time to be happy or healthy. This is where Mayka
>>     and 
>>     >> Anothony is right.
>>     >>
>>     >> In multiple generations, it needs to be understood that no
>>     matter who 
>>     >> comes into a family linage, will automatically result in the
>>     cause and 
>>     >> effect of that family linage. These are what we called family
>>     karma, or 
>>     >> ancestor karma. Then there is also parental karma. Cause and
>>     effect 
>>     >> always propagates. Depending on the time and space we fall in, we 
>>     >> becomes entangled with it.
>>     >>
>>     >> Many of our practitioners can accurately "tell" many
>>     generations of 
>>     >> previous lives of oneself and others, which I can't and not
>>     able to. 
>>     >> But there are enough witness to suggest, that we are somehow
>>     connected 
>>     >> with previous causes after we were born. Visuals however are
>>     not enough 
>>     >> to "prove" that we are resulted from who we were in the
>>     previous life.
>>     >>
>>     >> I hope it helps. Thank you for your time.
>>     >>
>>     >> As to Bill, he is always right, because all he says is just
>>     this. Like 
>>     >> chi, which I emphasize. :-)
>>     >> JM
>>     >>
>>     >> Edgar Owen wrote:
>>     >> >
>>     >> > Mayka,
>>     >> >
>>     >> >
>>     >> > There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good
>>     causes 
>>     >> > always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are
>>     harmed 
>>     >> > and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time.
>>     >> >
>>     >> > Edgar
>>     >> >
>>     >> >
>>     >> >
>>     >> > On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote:
>>     >> >
>>     >> >> Edgar;
>>     >> >>
>>     >> >> In the way I have always understand Karma is as an
>>     >> >> accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in
>>     reincarnation 
>>     >> >> and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I
>>     say. I 
>>     >> >> believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small 
>>     >> >> things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up 
>>     >> >> through the actions on its history and the results as a
>>     karma at the 
>>     >> >> present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same 
>>     >> >> pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't
>>     come from 
>>     >> >> any past life by through our personal actions and the result as 
>>     >> >> consequences whether positive or negative of that actions.
>>     One just 
>>     >> >> need to observe all this in order to see that this is like
>>     this and 
>>     >> >> not just an idea.
>>     >> >>
>>     >> >> Mayka 
>>     >> >>
>>     >> >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
>>     <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_
>>     Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> 
>>     >> >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Edgar Owen
>>     <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
>>     >> >> >
>>     >> >> > Mayka,
>>     >> >> > 
>>     >> >> > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and 
>>     >> >> effect 
>>     >> >> > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms
>>     operates. 
>>     >> >> > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers
>>     that 
>>     >> >> they 
>>     >> >> > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and
>>     even if 
>>     >> >> > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure
>>     Karma 
>>     >> >> > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there
>>     is some 
>>     >> >> > correlation between how one treats others and how others
>>     treat 
>>     >> >> one, 
>>     >> >> > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next
>>     lifetime, 
>>     >> >> > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap
>>     evil in 
>>     >> >> > return instead of good.
>>     >> >> > 
>>     >> >> > Edgar
>>     >> >> > 
>>     >> >> > 
>>     >> >> > 
>>     >> >> > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote:
>>     >> >> > 
>>     >> >> > > Edgar;
>>     >> >> > >
>>     >> >> > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that
>>     religion 
>>     >> >> is
>>     >> >> > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this
>>     also aplies 
>>     >> >> to
>>     >> >> > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a
>>     religion. What 
>>     >> >> I
>>     >> >> > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation,
>>     speculation,
>>     >> >> > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow
>>     the Dalai
>>     >> >> > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in
>>     Christianity. I'm
>>     >> >> > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow
>>     these two 
>>     >> >> Leaders
>>     >> >> > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more
>>     snobish or
>>     >> >> > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything
>>     and at the
>>     >> >> > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a
>>     matter of
>>     >> >> > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha
>>     Nature
>>     >> >> > > everywhere.
>>     >> >> > >
>>     >> >> > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not
>>     believing 
>>     >> >> but a
>>     >> >> > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think?
>>     >> >> > >
>>     >> >> > > Mayka
>>     >> >> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
>>     <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>     >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> 
>>     >> >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Edgar Owen
>>     <edgarowen@> wrote:
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > > > Anthony,
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults
>>     who are
>>     >> >> > > suffering
>>     >> >> > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in
>>     the next if
>>     >> >> > > they
>>     >> >> > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this
>>     one. Same as
>>     >> >> > > the
>>     >> >> > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and
>>     suffering 
>>     >> >> and
>>     >> >> > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition.
>>     As Marx 
>>     >> >> said,
>>     >> >> > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes
>>     both karma 
>>     >> >> and
>>     >> >> > > > Christian heaven.
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > > > Edgar
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > Hi,
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited.
>>     Here is a
>>     >> >> > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code
>>     quoted by 
>>     >> >> Edgar
>>     >> >> > > is
>>     >> >> > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about
>>     the past
>>     >> >> > > and
>>     >> >> > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen?
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from.
>>     It is the
>>     >> >> > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen.
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it
>>     is nothing
>>     >> >> > > to
>>     >> >> > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth
>>     we don't 
>>     >> >> care.
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to
>>     scare kids, so
>>     >> >> > > > > they behave themselves.
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > Regards,
>>     >> >> > > > > Anthony
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
>>     >> >> > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
>>     >> >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST
>>     >> >> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
>>     <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>     >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> <mailto:Zen_
>>     Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>
>>     >> >> > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > Bill,
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is
>>     living our
>>     >> >> > > lives
>>     >> >> > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death.
>>     Thus do we 
>>     >> >> gain
>>     >> >> > > an
>>     >> >> > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of
>>     life and 
>>     >> >> live
>>     >> >> > > it
>>     >> >> > > > > to the fullest.
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > Best,
>>     >> >> > > > > Edgar
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote:
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen
>>     <edgarowen@ ..>
>>     >> >> > > wrote:
>>     >> >> > > > >> >
>>     >> >> > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE?
>>     >> >> > > > >> >
>>     >> >> > > > >> > Edgar
>>     >> >> > > > >> >
>>     >> >> > > > >> Edgar et al,
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill
>>     and I had 
>>     >> >> to
>>     >> >> > > fly
>>     >> >> > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died
>>     when I was
>>     >> >> > > somewhere
>>     >> >> > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was
>>     informed 
>>     >> >> of his
>>     >> >> > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon
>>     arriving in 
>>     >> >> Detroit.
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting
>>     lymphoma
>>     >> >> > > (cancer of
>>     >> >> > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in
>>     severe
>>     >> >> > > discomfort
>>     >> >> > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on
>>     05 Nov, 
>>     >> >> just 3
>>     >> >> > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday.
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a
>>     retirement 
>>     >> >> home
>>     >> >> > > which
>>     >> >> > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my
>>     mother who 
>>     >> >> is
>>     >> >> > > 89 and
>>     >> >> > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring
>>     my mom up 
>>     >> >> to
>>     >> >> > > the
>>     >> >> > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with
>>     her but 
>>     >> >> with
>>     >> >> > > all
>>     >> >> > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients.. It you want to see
>>     Buddha 
>>     >> >> Nature
>>     >> >> > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time
>>     with some
>>     >> >> > > elderly
>>     >> >> > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration!
>>     No clever
>>     >> >> > > games
>>     >> >> > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you
>>     see is what 
>>     >> >> you
>>     >> >> > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just
>>     THIS!
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy
>>     trying to sort 
>>     >> >> out
>>     >> >> > > all
>>     >> >> > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my
>>     mother to 
>>     >> >> receive
>>     >> >> > > all
>>     >> >> > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her
>>     to live 
>>     >> >> the
>>     >> >> > > rest
>>     >> >> > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of
>>     that is 
>>     >> >> dealing
>>     >> >> > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers.
>>     Also there 
>>     >> >> was
>>     >> >> > > the
>>     >> >> > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past
>>     several 
>>     >> >> months
>>     >> >> > > full
>>     >> >> > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still
>>     haven't 
>>     >> >> been
>>     >> >> > > able
>>     >> >> > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the
>>     arrangements 
>>     >> >> with
>>     >> >> > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health
>>     insurance and
>>     >> >> > > hopfully
>>     >> >> > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of
>>     this is
>>     >> >> > > planning
>>     >> >> > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a 
>>     >> >> facility
>>     >> >> > > near
>>     >> >> > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa
>>     areas.
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in
>>     the way of
>>     >> >> > > postings
>>     >> >> > > > >> for probably through the first of the year.
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill!
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >>
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > > New Email names for you!
>>     >> >> > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new
>>     @ymail and
>>     >> >> > > > > @rocketmail.
>>     >> >> > > > > Hurry before someone else does!
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > > >
>>     >> >> > > >
>>     >> >> > >
>>     >> >> > >
>>     >> >> > >
>>     >> >> >
>>     >> >>
>>     >> >
>>     >> > 
>>     >>
>>     >
>>     > 
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Get your preferred Email name!  
>> <http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/sg/mail/domainchoice/mail/signature/*http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/>
>> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com.
>>
>
>  

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