Hi Edgar, Thank you. Interesting technique. I have learned. Now I understand what you mean by psychological phenom.
In deed, these memory recall does not necessarily mean they existed in the physical world. Now I understand your statement. JM Edgar Owen wrote: > > JM, > > > Past lives, not regression, is what I stated has a psychological reality. > > Technique to regress someone is not hypnosis. The subject relaxes on > his back in a peaceful situation with his eyes closed and the > regressor asks him to tell what he did this morning, yesterday, last > year, 10 years ago etc. etc. and to keep remembering what happened > before that. The subject typically remembers old childhood > experiences, being in the womb, and then things even before that. > Basic technique is very simple but the person doing the regression > needs to be skilled and always leading the subject's attention further > and further back in time without any judgement and a tone of voice > that leads to complete trust. > > It works for most people in that most people do report past lives, but > these are most likely just strong and deep imaginations which reveal > their deep self. There is little or no evidence to suggest they were > actual physical lives. > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 30, 2008, at 8:17 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: > >> >> Edgar/JM, >> >> I repeat and clarify JM's question. Edgar, what do you mean by karma >> is 'psychologically real'? What is 'real'? Only material is real? >> >> Please also clarify your 'regression'. Does it mean hypnotics? >> >> Regards, >> Anthony >> >> --- On *Sat, 29/11/08, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 / >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: >> >> From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Position of Karma in Zen >> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Saturday, 29 November, 2008, 9:52 AM >> >> Hello Edgar, >> >> You have raised two interesting points here. >> >> 1. About "Peace in between killing?" Let me share with you a >> personal >> experience. As you know, when we order a live fish in a Chinese >> restaurant, the waiter usually brings the live fish over for us to >> approve. About three or four years ago, without warning, right >> after I >> nod my head with consent, I get a severe headache. Thereafter, the >> headache happens every time. I still EAT live fish sometimes, but >> have >> asked the waiter not to bring over for approval any more. Then I >> check >> around with other practitioners in our school. Many had similar >> experience. This is just one of many ways, we can witness karma. >> As I >> said, karmic energy is real. It can be experienced. Cause and effect >> is real. >> >> The fact that Japanese Zen Master can sponsor the WWII, proves to >> me, >> they lost the real practice, otherwise, the karma they generated >> would >> have kill themselves already. I apologize for the strong language. >> Just leave it as a personal opinion of mine. >> >> 2. So you believe that in the psychological phenomenon that previous >> lives do exist? Hmm, do you believe that the "physical world" is not >> related to the spiritual world or there is no logical explanation >> of the >> cause for these psychological world? I mean do you think that >> these two >> worlds are disconnected? I am curious as to what you would say. >> >> Thanks, >> JM >> BTW, I just got the email. I am still having problem with either >> yahoo >> group or Gmail. :-) >> >> Edgar Owen wrote: >> > >> > JM, >> > >> > >> > You say violence never results in peacefulness. How about samurai, >> > Musashi, etc? They seemed very much at peace in between killing. >> > >> > As for past lives, I've 'regressed' people many times so they >> > experienced past lives. I've done it to myself and it is quite >> > interesting. Past lives are most certainly a real psychological >> > phenomenon but that doesn't mean they are actually real in the >> > physical world. >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Nov 25, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Edgar/Bill/Mayka/ Anthony, >> >> >> >> I have tried to avoid discussing karma in labels and concepts >> only, >> >> because there are so many different versions. Yet it is so >> important and >> >> so misunderstood. I will try to put it into words. First of >> all, if >> >> you don't believe in cause and effect, then there is no point >> to read on. >> >> >> >> You each are right in a partial way, because words are >> incomplete by >> >> nature. I will try to explain from my experience, but also >> incomplete >> >> through words. Karma like chi, needs to be observed, sensed, >> processed, >> >> experienced. Mayka is right in this case. The key is not for >> any us to >> >> "believe" or "not believe". To think that we "know" or "not know". >> >> Agree or not agree. There is nothing to know. Nothing to agree. >> Just >> >> experience. We all can. >> >> >> >> In the same domain as Chi, karma is a label for an invisible >> chi, "the >> >> energy of cause". or "disturbed chi" or "unregulated chi". Nothing >> >> more. Good or bad karma are human labels applied after the >> "resulted >> >> effect" becomes apparent. In this case Edgar is right. >> >> >> >> If you are sick, it is caused by karma. In this case karma >> could mean >> >> blocked chi, mental anguish, genetic. When the karma is >> relieved, the >> >> discomfort is gone. If you are in an accident, it is caused by >> karma. >> >> In this case karma could mean, lack of focus, cause by the lack >> of focus >> >> of others, cause of this cause and other multiple causes. Karma >> is just >> >> another "label for cause" and in our school, everything can be >> >> attributed to various forms of chi. >> >> >> >> In the reward system mentioned by Anthony and Mayka, it can be >> observed >> >> in this life as simply as the "peacefulness of our spirit". >> That is the >> >> true reward. Violence never results in peacefulness in anyone. >> And in >> >> our school, violent people have "agitated chi" or "disturbed >> chi". They >> >> have difficult time to be happy or healthy. This is where Mayka >> and >> >> Anothony is right. >> >> >> >> In multiple generations, it needs to be understood that no >> matter who >> >> comes into a family linage, will automatically result in the >> cause and >> >> effect of that family linage. These are what we called family >> karma, or >> >> ancestor karma. Then there is also parental karma. Cause and >> effect >> >> always propagates. Depending on the time and space we fall in, we >> >> becomes entangled with it. >> >> >> >> Many of our practitioners can accurately "tell" many >> generations of >> >> previous lives of oneself and others, which I can't and not >> able to. >> >> But there are enough witness to suggest, that we are somehow >> connected >> >> with previous causes after we were born. Visuals however are >> not enough >> >> to "prove" that we are resulted from who we were in the >> previous life. >> >> >> >> I hope it helps. Thank you for your time. >> >> >> >> As to Bill, he is always right, because all he says is just >> this. Like >> >> chi, which I emphasize. :-) >> >> JM >> >> >> >> Edgar Owen wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Mayka, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > There is certainly cause and effect, but Karma says that good >> causes >> >> > always garner good effects which is nonsense. Good people are >> harmed >> >> > and wiped out all the time. Evil people prosper all the time. >> >> > >> >> > Edgar >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mayka wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Edgar; >> >> >> >> >> >> In the way I have always understand Karma is as an >> >> >> accion and reaction of the action. I don't believe in >> reincarnation >> >> >> and that kind of stuff. But I believe in karma in the way I >> say. I >> >> >> believe in that way because I can see that continuosly in small >> >> >> things a big things. There is the karma of a Country built up >> >> >> through the actions on its history and the results as a >> karma at the >> >> >> present moment. There is the karma of a family with the same >> >> >> pattern. And there is our personal karma that it doesn't >> come from >> >> >> any past life by through our personal actions and the result as >> >> >> consequences whether positive or negative of that actions. >> One just >> >> >> need to observe all this in order to see that this is like >> this and >> >> >> not just an idea. >> >> >> >> >> >> Mayka >> >> >> >> >> >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_ >> Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> >> >> >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Edgar Owen >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Mayka, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Exactly. Karma is not the same as cause and effect. Cause and >> >> >> effect >> >> >> > are the rules of science by which the universe of forms >> operates. >> >> >> > That is reality. Karma, on the other hand, tells believers >> that >> >> >> they >> >> >> > will always reap what they sow, whether good or evil, and >> even if >> >> >> > they have to wait till a next life time (just to make sure >> Karma >> >> >> > can't be exposed as nonsense of course). Of course there >> is some >> >> >> > correlation between how one treats others and how others >> treat >> >> >> one, >> >> >> > but that is far from certain. And since there is no next >> lifetime, >> >> >> > doing good in this one doesn't guarantee one won't reap >> evil in >> >> >> > return instead of good. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Edgar >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Mayka wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > Edgar; >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > I have to agree with Marx on this one about sayind that >> religion >> >> >> is >> >> >> > > the opiate of the people. The only thing is that this >> also aplies >> >> >> to >> >> >> > > buddhism and zen when they express themselves as a >> religion. What >> >> >> I >> >> >> > > mean by this is that I have seen more disorentation, >> speculation, >> >> >> > > stupidity and ignorance in the massive people who follow >> the Dalai >> >> >> > > Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh that I've ever seen in >> Christianity. I'm >> >> >> > > not sure if this is because the majority who follow >> these two >> >> >> Leaders >> >> >> > > have changed their Christian clothing to something more >> snobish or >> >> >> > > what but the truth is that there is catch in everything >> and at the >> >> >> > > same time there is a truth in everything. It's all a >> matter of >> >> >> > > having a clean mind and one can see heaven or the Buddha >> Nature >> >> >> > > everywhere. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > In any case it is never a matter of believing or not >> believing >> >> >> but a >> >> >> > > matter of experiencing all that in one. Don't you think? >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Mayka >> >> >> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> >> >> >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com>, Edgar Owen >> <edgarowen@> wrote: >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Anthony, >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > None of the below. Karma is a fairy tale for adults >> who are >> >> >> > > suffering >> >> >> > > > in this life, telling them things will be better in >> the next if >> >> >> > > they >> >> >> > > > behave themselves and don't cause problems in this >> one. Same as >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > Christian view of heaven keeps all the exploited and >> suffering >> >> >> and >> >> >> > > > poor in line in this life to accept their condition. >> As Marx >> >> >> said, >> >> >> > > > religion is the opiate of the people. That includes >> both karma >> >> >> and >> >> >> > > > Christian heaven. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Edgar >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Hi, >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Since everybody is lurking waiting to be excited. >> Here is a >> >> >> > > > > multiple choice to think about. The samurai code >> quoted by >> >> >> Edgar >> >> >> > > is >> >> >> > > > > a perfect example of the 'present' moment. How about >> the past >> >> >> > > and >> >> >> > > > > the future? What is the position of karma in zen? >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > A. Karma is a universal law nobody can escape from. >> It is the >> >> >> > > > > essence of Buddhism and also of some schools of zen. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > B. Karma relates to the past and the future, so it >> is nothing >> >> >> > > to >> >> >> > > > > do with zen. Whether or not it represents the truth >> we don't >> >> >> care. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > C. Karma is a fairy tale. You need something to >> scare kids, so >> >> >> > > > > they behave themselves. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Regards, >> >> >> > > > > Anthony >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >> >> >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TEST >> >> >> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> >> <mailto:Zen_ Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> <mailto:Zen_ >> Forum%40yahoogro ups.com> >> >> >> > > > > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 11:48 PM >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Bill, >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > The samurai code especially emphasizes that Zen is >> living our >> >> >> > > lives >> >> >> > > > > in the moment in the constant presence of death. >> Thus do we >> >> >> gain >> >> >> > > an >> >> >> > > > > immense appreciation for every transient moment of >> life and >> >> >> live >> >> >> > > it >> >> >> > > > > to the fullest. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Best, >> >> >> > > > > Edgar >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Bill Smart wrote: >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, Edgar Owen >> <edgarowen@ ..> >> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > > > >> > ANYONE STILL HERE? >> >> >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > > > >> > Edgar >> >> >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > > > >> Edgar et al, >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> I'm stll here lurking only. My father was very ill >> and I had >> >> >> to >> >> >> > > fly >> >> >> > > > >> to the US to be with him. Unfortnutaely he died >> when I was >> >> >> > > somewhere >> >> >> > > > >> over the Pacific Ocean flying out of Tokyo. I was >> informed >> >> >> of his >> >> >> > > > >> death when I turned on my mobile phone upon >> arriving in >> >> >> Detroit. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> I was a good death for him. He had been fighting >> lymphoma >> >> >> > > (cancer of >> >> >> > > > >> the lymph nodes) for 4 or 5 years and has been in >> severe >> >> >> > > discomfort >> >> >> > > > >> for at least the last serveral months. He died on >> 05 Nov, >> >> >> just 3 >> >> >> > > > >> days short of what would have been his 91st birthday. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> I am now residing in my father's apartment in a >> retirement >> >> >> home >> >> >> > > which >> >> >> > > > >> is connected to the nursing home which houses my >> mother who >> >> >> is >> >> >> > > 89 and >> >> >> > > > >> has Alhzheimer's. I have the opportunity to bring >> my mom up >> >> >> to >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > >> apartment every day,and to interact not only with >> her but >> >> >> with >> >> >> > > all >> >> >> > > > >> the other Alhzheimer patients.. It you want to see >> Buddha >> >> >> Nature >> >> >> > > > >> unfettered and unadulterated you should spend time >> with some >> >> >> > > elderly >> >> >> > > > >> people such as these. They are such an inspiration! >> No clever >> >> >> > > games >> >> >> > > > >> or silly posturing. It is true WYSIWYG (what you >> see is what >> >> >> you >> >> >> > > > >> get), and that is what I call Buddha Nature - Just >> THIS! >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> I have been and will continue to be very busy >> trying to sort >> >> >> out >> >> >> > > all >> >> >> > > > >> the financial arrangements with will allow my >> mother to >> >> >> receive >> >> >> > > all >> >> >> > > > >> the benefits to which she is entitled and allow her >> to live >> >> >> the >> >> >> > > rest >> >> >> > > > >> of her life in comfort and with secutity. Much of >> that is >> >> >> dealing >> >> >> > > > >> with truts and lawyers and brokers and bankers. >> Also there >> >> >> was >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > >> mountain of mail which accumulated over the past >> several >> >> >> months >> >> >> > > full >> >> >> > > > >> of bills and medical insurance jargon that I still >> haven't >> >> >> been >> >> >> > > able >> >> >> > > > >> to fully penetrate. ALso there is of course the >> arrangements >> >> >> with >> >> >> > > > >> Social Secutiy, my dad's pension and health >> insurance and >> >> >> > > hopfully >> >> >> > > > >> some VA surviving spouse benefits. The last part of >> this is >> >> >> > > planning >> >> >> > > > >> and accompanying her on a to northern California to a >> >> >> facility >> >> >> > > near >> >> >> > > > >> two of my daughters - Castro Valley or Santa Rosa >> areas. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> I will continue to lurk, but don't expect much in >> the way of >> >> >> > > postings >> >> >> > > > >> for probably through the first of the year. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> With deep appreciation. ...Bill! >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > New Email names for you! >> >> >> > > > > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new >> @ymail and >> >> >> > > > > @rocketmail. >> >> >> > > > > Hurry before someone else does! >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Get your preferred Email name! >> <http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/sg/mail/domainchoice/mail/signature/*http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/> >> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com. >> > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/